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Discussion in 'Telecaster Discussion Forum' started by TDPRI, Aug 29, 2005.
I think Paul did a good job moderating the discussion,
studio guys VS. road guys, how rediculous, talented people all.
after reading most of the posts, sarcasm just overwhelmed me.
I do appreciate that the discussion was allowed to continue .
Thanks for discussing this with us. I appreciate posts from some one who has been there. A lot of Pros won't post, so we semi-pros and amatuers stay in the dark. It is fun to get to "peek inside" a world 99% of us will never see. thanks again!---------JIMO
<li>Above and beyond all udders here Bill I wood knott for the world have yew apologize for anythin.
<li>Yew (as yew well know) are one of my idols and an icon of TELECASTER pickin.
<li>My post waz miss-stood-unner as are most. My liddo pix of the "Bad Dog" waz mint fer udders higher up on iss page than yew or I and knott yew.
<li>I kin alwayz be speck-ted tew wanna keep it TELECASTER and by the same token be the first tew driff off into a nutter direction.
<li>I wood haff PMed yew but here inna pubic mebby all kin cee that I had noe ann-noe-moss-city. Or in udder werds, I waz jes kiddin .
Pray fer the folks down onna gulf!!! Specially Ken and Daver old members of the old TDP and the Ship.
No offense taken at all! I will disuss any of this any time with those who ask....but I think for the overall health of the TDP it's best to keep things that are "fringe tele related" to a comfortable length....So I wasn't comin at you....actually i was just agreeing!!!! It was time to get back on track...
Thanks as always,
Hooks, licks, and songwriting.
There's a difference between a cool "lick" and an instantly recognizable "hook", and even a "riff". I'm not sure if I know how to define it, but I know it when I hear it.
I've encountered wildly and vastly dissenting opinions as to the relationship between a great "hook" and "songwriting", from pros, hobbyists, and legal types alike. I know that there is a plethora of individualized situations out there, and much depends on the relationships between individuals. However, the overwhelming concensus that I've managed to ascertain is that a for-real "hook" ("licks" notwithstanding) does in fact constitute co-writing credit, and any subsequent financial compensation.
I'm by no stretch of the imagination a heavy hitter, but a large part of my job is to take a bare bones lyric and simple chord progression, and give it a hook or two, as well as to provide arrangements for said tunes (which is of course a separate beast).
I'd be extremely interested in learning about any cut-and-dry parameters, legalities, and ramifications that in fact are universally recognized regarding the relationship between "hooks" and "songwriting".
I realize that such is something I should know by now; pardon my being late to the party. Thanks in advance for any insight.
First of all, I have thoroughly enjoyed this post.
20 years ago there was a local band here from Texas that got a record deal and released a project. They were all (and still are) great players/vocalists. After the project was released, many of the local fans were disappointed to find that none of the "group" played on the project. They were marketed as a vocal group, and I found out later that the lead singer was the only member given the "deal", and he later persuaded the powers-that-be to let him bring in the other vocalists to record the background vocals. The sad thing is that many of the fans felt betrayed because they thought the music they were buying was their favorite local band "gone big".
Many fans were turned off, and others refused to even purchase the album because it was done with studio musicians. I personally think that was stupid, though understandable, being a fan myself at the time.
The project was recorded in Nashville with well known producers, session players, including the late great Larrie Londin. They had moderate success and the lead singer later launched a solo career, and released two more projects. I later had the honor of being hired on as keyboard/steel player. I now was part of the touring band having to learn all the studio parts for the live shows, emulating Buddy Emmons and David Briggs.
I know that the songs released to radio had the success that they did becuase of the creativity and genious of the session players being able to deliver the demands of the producer(s) involved.
We have all since gone our own way, and I am involved in my own projects having the opportunity to work with very talented studio musicians and a producer who is an ex-session player from Nashville. I can very much appreciate, and greatly admire a seasoned session players ability to walk in, listen to a demo, read a chart, and walk out 8 hours later with 13 to 14 tracks finished; most done on the first or second take.
Long story short, having been blessed to experience all sides of the equasion -
1)I can identify with the fan who wants buy a CD of his/her favority "band" and know that they are listening to who they see at the concerts.
2) I can appreciate the talent and creativity of the touring musician that plays the signature licks flawlessly night after night, sometimes banging their heads trying to figure out what was done in the studio :?
3) and I can admire and praise the studio professionals who continue to give us, day after day, the great soundtracks that we all hear behind our favorite vocalist.
They both have their place, working in their gifts, talents and abilities. All should be respected and all should be praised for the job well done. We all make the world go 'round.
Im getting an aneurism becasue of this thread!
believe it or not..
I read this entire thread again this morning over a cup of coffee that started out hot..then not...
It's a great read with a ton of insight by all..
A real merge of experience, talent and totally different levels of players...and views of course....
I guess the only thing I came away with was that one of the comments about BP's band was that he uses session players..and yes that is true..but I think that Brad and Frank Rogers have stumbled across a formula that works..a different perspective....
There is no doubt in anyones mind that each of the players in Brads band are capable of things beyond even what they thought they could accomplish..but Brad and Frank have invited OUTSIDE guests to appear and although I don't know this as a given fact, Brad has not called me, (I'm still waiting) but it is apprant to me that Brad and Frank are sharing the "Studio Stage " if you will with some of their own heroes...and ours....
Did Brad need Redd or James on a CD? Of course not..Can Randle handle the Steel as opposed to bringing in Mr. Never Go Around Mirrors " ..Mike Johnson ?
Of course he can..quite honestly listening to the latest CD I can't tell where one of them ends and the other starts...
I think in this particular case I think it is an example of a very smart producer with a NEW formula for todays times....
Two young guns ( B+F) getting the opportunity to work alongside THIER heroes...
AJ, James, Mike J, Jerry, Dolly..thats pretty powerfull stuff...
I personally can't wait to find out who's gonna be the next Guitar guest on the next CD !
I'll just state what they say over on the Steel Guitar Forum..
"Stop working on, turn it over and play the Bugger "....
session shmession..road shmoad..
I don't really care..I love it all...
My only comment about this would be that many producers are very familiar with certain musicians, and know what to expect from them. They may choose to use what the producer wants because most bands like this are about making money for the record company and the record company wants certainty. This isn't a bad thing. The touring band may be just as good, but may not be exactly what the producer is looking for. They are two completely different roles. The touring band may want guys who are road tested and can improvise. Heck some of the touring guys may be better all around players, but with big records it is all about getting that "thing" that will sell.
Myself, I'd be more interested in having the time off and letting the studio team guys do it and being able to rest up. Travel is brutal regardless of what level in The Music Industry one's at. The very last thing I'd want to see is the inside of some recording studio.
I, first and formost, have always considered myself a session player. Nothing more. I have never been the kind of live player to brag about and thats cool. Once, my friends Steve Wariner and Ricky Skaggs tried to get me to sub for Vince Gill on Nashville Now, when Vince cancelled at the last minute..they were going to do a three way jam. I got cold sweats. In the studio Im bullett proof..live, forget it!!
I have always felt uneasy in road bands and have always struggled for "THE" live tone that seems to come easy for good road players.
All of my life since I was 17 I have been a studio picker...in LA, Nashville and abroad. And I'm here to say that it is most definitely a different mindset than that of a road band player.
Road players are amazing creatures that have the durability and attitude to perform the same show night after night flawlessly. I have tremendous respect for that. They earn every dollar they get. Many of the road bands have the latest gear and are armed to the "T" much more than many of us session guitarists. They know how to get a tone "live" and pull it off and make it work.
On the other hand, session players hate the road, as a whole. Their mind set is in the studio where they must be expected to not only be crafted players but skilled "arrangers" and tech aces, able to create signature licks for the acts who hire them. It's high stress, big money and careers are at stake and in the midst of all that you are expected to sometimes make shinola out of crap. It's a thankless gig..no glory..no rotalties, no big bucks if the record is a smash..
You are a human jukebox gunslinger with a brain catalog of a lifetime of licks to pull from, and what seperates road players from session players is that the latter knows how to create and place those signature licks within the framework of the songs. They are not intimidated when the studio red light goes on...they can adapt to any studio, any producer and any act.
Many times, we are mini composers who never get the true credit (or royalties)for saving a bland song and turning it into a mega hit by playing the hooks that fans walk around humming. I could tell you a few major hits I played on that if you took off the guitar parts it would be an entirely different record....no thanks, no royalties. Thats what we do. Thats our job.
Road bands learn our licks off the record when they're already done and tucked away...
That requires a certain skill as well. But in many cases road players cannot adapt to the tremendous pressures of a master session.
Some of you can hoot and howl all you want to, but I know what Im talking about. Many times the road bands complain about "not being on the record", but once they get an opportunity to actually get in there and make magic..they find it a much different kettle of fish.
As a session player you have to know how to READ the artist , the producer, the musicians around you...as well as concentrate on your own contribution. It's a dance..and its more than just playing hot licks in a concert or club.
I worked with the Bellamy Brothers in the early 90's and played all the guitars on their hits "Cowboy Beat" and "Hard Way To Make An Easy Living". The rest of the band was absent. They were great live players but hadnt a clue in the studio. This made me tremendously unpopular with the rest of the Bellamy's road band. Onstage, those guys were better at their gig than I was..but inthe studio they were petrified wood.
Still, they took it very personally, as many road bands seem to do.
It's one of the reasons I very seldom go out with anyone these days. Like I said, my life has always been (and still is) in the studio, and those brave warriors who hit the road are able to do it much better than me. They have my total respect.
Making records is a big business..a serious business where wasting time simply isnt acceptable. Playing live is also a serious business where durability and stamina prevail. It's two totaly seperate things...
Someone spoke of Waylon. Waylon used many studio cats during his career, as did Hag and Cash and nearly every artist. Hell, Alabama is country's answer to the Beach Boys as far as playing on their own records go.
I say, God bless the boys on the road and the boys in the studio..its all about making music and anyway you slice it up, it's a good thing.
I've seen guys do it both ways, Brent Mason, Bill H., Redd, etc... these guys can play in studio or live as well as anybody. However, like John B. said, there are time limitations on working in a studio and you've got to nail your part, timely and artistically. It's also a different feeling to walk onto a stage with 20,000+ screaming fans, that can get to some guys in a quick hurry. For me, playing in front of a rowdy crowd always brought out the best in my playing. It was like, "were the hell did I pull that lick from", then the next day you don't know how you did it. 8) To each, their own. YMMV.