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Brooks & Dunn Muscians Thread Removed. Let's talk

Discussion in 'Telecaster Discussion Forum' started by TDPRI, Aug 29, 2005.

  1. jpkusa

    jpkusa Tele-Holic

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    Re: Somebody straighten me out on this...

    It was my experience when I was living in Nashville that the songwriters would write the song and record it at home or wherever, just vocal and acoustic, to play it for the publisher. Then the publisher would book a small demo studio (many publishers have them in-house) and hire a full band of affordable session players to come cut the song for a couple hours. Sometimes one of the writers might produce the demo session, sometimes the publisher. The point of this full-band demo was for presentation to the label and the artist they were pitching it to.

    Sometimes, no doubt, some hooks make their way from the demo to the hit single via different people. But there's no way to know how many or how often.

    And I'm sure some songs get cut soley on the strength of a voice and acoustic (that's what writers nights are for, I suppose). Bill or BGW know more about that, I'm sure.
     
  2. Simpleman73

    Simpleman73 Tele-Meister

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    What about the bands for the Videos? Are they the Studio band, the Road Band, or the ones that look good on TV band?
     
  3. Southpaw433

    Southpaw433 Tele-Meister

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    Interesting thread

    how much do life choices play into studio vs road musicians?

    If I was good enough (I'm not) - I would pick studio - seems like that would allow one to have a "normal life" yet, do what you love to do. On the other hand some people seem to love the road.

    Who knows? Duane Allman did both. How can one say the Live Filmore East recordings are better than the Derick and the Dominoes studio sessions?
     
  4. OutlawSteph

    OutlawSteph Tele-Meister

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    Re: Interesting thread

    I can say because the Filmore recordings capture the energy and spirit of the ABB at their greatest time in history in an historical venue in front of lots of enthralled fans. The Derek and the Dominoes sessions are very interesting and a great historical meeting of two of the greatest blues/rock guitarists ever, but that energy just isn't there. It's like a first date compared to the Filmore concert which is more like... you know.
     
  5. Jimo

    Jimo Tele-Afflicted

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    Another thing!

    Remember on some of the rock records--bands spend a year, two years, whatever ,with the band members.This Nashville technique seems to be getting a song or Two each afternoon!-------JIMO
     
  6. Bill  Hullett

    Bill Hullett Tele-Afflicted Ad Free Member

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    Answers....

    There are no difinitive answers of where hook licks come from...sometimes the demo sometimes the master....sometimes the same guy is on both the demo and master , sometimes the master guy is asked to cop the demo lick because everyone likes it (even though he didn't invent it) sometimes they ask him to change it because they don't like it....I myself have been in all three positions...it winds up all coming out in the wash...the important part is ; do your best at all levels and make a great record, or demo , whatever you're hired to do at the moment...

    I would say that by in large though the hook licks are attached to demo or master by the guys playing them and not the song writers....Thats where the talent of the player can shine, creating a lick thats so good that you don't want to hear the song without the lick played...thats the sign of a great part....
    For example the hook lick intro of Dobie Gray's "Drift Away" was actually an instrumental that Reggie had been working on and thought that it fit nicely on the Dobie tune (Lucky Dobie!) and if my memory is correct I think Drift Away was a demo that eventually became a master because it was so darn good!!!!

    I can listen to Chatahoochie and know that Brent invented that lick...his personna is all over it....
    but there never is an absolute as to how things evolve...



    Bill Hullett
     
  7. blue water girl

    blue water girl Tele-Afflicted

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    Re: Somebody straighten me out on this...


    NO. That is the session musicians job every day to come up with those hooks that we remember even if we don't remember the entire song.

    In fact, the original lick for Chattahoochee (which is really called Lot About Livin) was much more elaborate, but Alan told Brent - "No, that's too many notes, I want you to simplify it a bit, we'll never find someone to play that on stage."
     
  8. Joel Terry

    Joel Terry Poster Extraordinaire

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    I suppose I did go overboard and wrongly tie the talent/skill level of the songwriter to their recorded songs. I'll concede that.

    But most of those songs that make the airwaves...man, my disdain for those songs defies description. Payola exists: Don't let anyone try to brush off this fact like some untenable conspiracy theory.

    But, hey--a lot of people probably wouldn't like the tunes I write or the work of the songwriters I like. ;)

    Joel
     
  9. jpkusa

    jpkusa Tele-Holic

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    Re: Another thing!

    Well, in some ways the Nashville system is the way almost all records were made, say, pre-1965. Sinatra is famous for strolling into the studio, taking one pass at the vocal, and leaving. The Beatles cut their first album in a day. None of the Byrds are even on "Mr. Tamborine Man", except for McGuinn. Dylan has almost always used session guys, including Nashville session guys (Charlie McCoy and Charlie Daniels, just to name two). The sixties soul records in Memphis and Detroit were cut very quickly, with house bands; Wilson Pickett flew into town, met the MG's in the studio, and cut "Midnight Hour" in a night or so. And on and on.

    I really believe that the studio system is not the issue so much as the quality of the material is. A good song is a good song no matter how it was cut or who played on it, or how quickly it was cut.
     
  10. genelovesjez

    genelovesjez Friend of Leo's

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    No, you were right the first time, Joel. Anyone who deliberately puts out hackneyed, trite and formulaic songs deserves all the scorn we can muster. Whether or not they are theoretically capable of doing better is immaterial: most of what defines a good artist is the ability to avoid the hackneyed, trite and formulaic. *

    Hey, if it's all being driven by payola anyway, why can't payola put good stuff on the radio?

    * Please bear in mind, I haven't heard any of this music, so I'm taking your word for it that it's hackneyed, trite and formulaic.
     
  11. jpkusa

    jpkusa Tele-Holic

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    Exactly.
     
  12. T Prior

    T Prior Poster Extraordinaire

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    I feel many are missing the whole point here..

    Recording and placing it on vinyl or CD is about the song the artist or the band..

    We can't compare or state that Duane Allman played all his own parts, or Jimi played his own parts..


    the recordings were ABOUT THOSE GUYS..they were the purpose of the sessions...

    Alan Jackson writes a song, he sings a song..the session is about Alan and his song..it's not about who plays Guitar or Drums..

    Brad records with his own band , they are a family unit..they tour , live and breath with each other..The band, very much like Clint Blacks band, are on salary...at least thats what I was told by Geoff Patterson, who plays Steel with Clint.

    thats not quite the same as a session player trying to fill a 10 hour day with 3 different sessions across town...I like the way Paul Franlkin stated it so clearly when we ran into him a month or two back..

    "On any given Monday, the phone could stop ringing"...."and then I would be a road player again"....

    A Road player really needs to #1, fit in and be civil with the rest of the band...although playing skills are very important, this is not the absolute #1 factor...

    I can name on one finger a dozen or more excellent player friends who lost road gigs because of promoting self importance, you know, legends in there own minds...

    " I can play it better than the record "....

    "Good for you"....... "next player please".....

    The session player must switch gears and have the complete discipline to take orders , play fresh and bring musicianship with him ( or her) each time out...or there may not be a next time out...

    Another scenario..the road player who is not on tour may pick up another small tour with another artist in between...how is that guy (gal) supposed to schedule 3 months out for sessions ?

    I hate this discussion...

    Two totally different venues for musicians..can they be merged ? Yes of course..is it common ? Probably not and probably for a plethora of reasons recoded in the session players history book.

    Where is it that staes If you play on the road you should play on the session ? or vice versa ?

    Who made up that rule ?

    Our band has been hired to back a very young local singer, we can cover the tunes very well, Hot Tele, a bunch of Steel etc...His 6 demo's were done in Nville with I believe Brent , Paul and company, at least thats what I was told and it sure sounds like those cats...

    So what should we have told this local promoter ? ( daddy)

    "No way man , we either do it all or nothing " ?

    I don't think so...I'm gonna play my Steel parts consistent ( I hope) and grab my approx $200 per gig and go home...and keep my pie hole shut and be happy.

    When you go to work everyday..do you decide what it is you need to do or has it already been determined...if it's already been determined..you are a road player....

    If you are sitting at a round table disussion of what needs to be done and assist in drawing up the master plan..you are a session player....

    it's not just music..it's everyday...

    I hate this discussion.....

    t
     
  13. Mike Dickerson

    Mike Dickerson Tele-Meister

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    T Prior is right on also. I think a lot of people complaining about the music business have never been a part of it. They have the grand idea that it if it was me I would stand up and show them. No you wouldnt. You would be back at your day job before you could blink. I hate a lot of the way the music business is done. I feel like my band was screwed at times by the business of music. Bottom line is some of the best players in the world are out there on the road and some of the best players in the world are in the studios. Some of us are going in to our 9-5. Almost 9 gotta go.
     
  14. jpkusa

    jpkusa Tele-Holic

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    And a lot of people who complain about the music business have been and are a part of it.
     
  15. Oskar

    Oskar Friend of Leo's

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    Nashville = Corporate

    At least that's the sense I've been getting from this thread. Perhaps Nashville should learn something form rock and all it's various splinters, and in particular, its Indie movement.
    Nashville has had some rebels over the years, John Cash, Waylon Jennings, even folks like Jerry Lee Lewis, and let's not forget Elvis. But they were more the exception.
    And there are some bands (not many) like the Mavericks (interesting they should have that name) who have made some inroads, but they're not up there with the "manufactured" acts that seem to rule the country airwaves.
    That Indie thing just doesn't seem to be allowed in Nashville. Certainly not if the process is as Bill has stated.
     
  16. Bill  Hullett

    Bill Hullett Tele-Afflicted Ad Free Member

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    well actually.....

    Oskar wrote......."At least that's the sense I've been getting from this thread. Perhaps Nashville should learn something form rock and all it's various splinters, and in particular, its Indie movement.
    Nashville has had some rebels over the years, John Cash, Waylon Jennings, even folks like Jerry Lee Lewis, and let's not forget Elvis. But they were more the exception.
    And there are some bands (not many) like the Mavericks (interesting they should have that name) who have made some inroads, but they're not up there with the "manufactured" acts that seem to rule the country airwaves.
    That Indie thing just doesn't seem to be allowed in Nashville. Certainly not if the process is as Bill has stated."



    Oskar....
    All the folks you mentioned I will agree have put out some great product though out their careers but I need to point it out that by in large they did it within the framework of Nashvilles way of doing bizz....They all had major labels ...used session bands.....etc...etc...And when I say this I'm not slamming the way things are done....at times I wish that they could be tweeked a little differently , but for the most part many many many....records are made this way....far more than you would ever imagine....Even in rock! ZZ Top even uses session great Greg Marrow on drums....It doesn't mean that people can't play well....it's just tha everybody has their strong points and if a particulat style or groove isn't their forte then another person is called upon to perform the part....that even happens among session guys....certain people are called upon for certain types of skills...

    As far as Indie labels go.....I think it would be tremendous if Indies could come back and flourish ....I know a lot of people in Nashville are hoping for the same thing, so maybe that day will come soon....But don't be too surprized if they use big business as their model to succeed :lol:

    Bill Hullett
     
  17. teledude66

    teledude66 Friend of Leo's

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    Re: Somebody straighten me out on this...

    so did Brent get any writing credit for providing what to me is the signature of "Chattahoochee"...i'm thinking probably not?
     
  18. Bill  Hullett

    Bill Hullett Tele-Afflicted Ad Free Member

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    teledude

    teledude.....
    A hook lick (as important as it is) would be an arrangement feature of a song, not the written content...

    Just like a great commercial (ie: the little old lady that said "where's the beef" in the Wendys ad from years ago) you might remember the commercial....and yes those persons who created and acted in the commercial are paid very well....But they do not share beyond that in the success (or failure I might ad...) of any given product....
    Us session guys have it pretty darn good....we get paid even if it ain't a hit! :lol:

    Bill Hullett
     
  19. AJ Love

    AJ Love Friend of Leo's

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    Re: well actually.....

    It's certainly true that alot of the most successful Indie labels of all-time (Motown, Stax, Chess, etc) used a set studio band to give them their signature sound...
     
  20. T Prior

    T Prior Poster Extraordinaire

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    thank you Bill H.

    Session players are PAID to create the licks..not write them and have them copyrighted.....they are hired to arrive on the scene on time and just do it...get er' done...

    LICKS and hooks are not part of any copyright..and not owned by the player...and if you are thinking they are and should be , you are in for Napster x 1000 or more....

    The great Loyd Green, the infamous Steel Guitar player who with his Sho-Bud has played on well over 6000 Nashville hits with Hooks and signature riffs for over 4 decades..told me this... about this exact subject...

    "Tony, I don't own the licks or the riffs..I wish I did..but the simple truth is I got paid to play them".. " and many times very well" ..." They are part of a project that was purchased and paid for"..." I was paid to add music to a song which was already written"....

    Session players are paid to show up and play. So they better show up and play..

    Road players are paid to travel and play ...so the better travel and play...

    If a musician can "play" in both worlds more power to them.

    Nashville sessions may of course follow a guideline, but if you are thinking this only happens in CW music.. you may want to put your pipe away for a week or two...

    My brother in law and Sister in the early to mid 80's produced several R+B acts, with one or two top 5 national records. The sessions were almost done completey with maybe 2 or 3 musicians..
    For instance..the Moments.."You must be a Special Lady"..top 5... Local NYC session master musician, Lou Toby, played almost every Instrument on those sessions...but of course when the Moments toured..they had a 5 piece band...a road band...

    So it ain't just a Country /Nashville thing..sorry...


    t
     
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