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Brooks & Dunn Muscians Thread Removed. Let's talk

Discussion in 'Telecaster Discussion Forum' started by TDPRI, Aug 29, 2005.

  1. TDPRI

    TDPRI Retired

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    Earlier today a thread was posted asking if Lou and Tony (two TDPers that play in Brooks and Dunn's touring band) were going to be on the new B&D CD that is coming out.

    Now, you'd think that's a pretty safe subject... but maybe not. After a couple of requests to remove the thread I did so. But, I really didn't want to remove it. So, lets talk about it a bit.

    The subject quickly turned to it's real root namely "Session Musicians VS Touring Musicians." When you think about it, I'm not surprised that this is a hot button topic.

    Now we have both here... Session Musicians and Touring Musicians. So both sides definately have their points of view here. Is there a built in sensitivity when talants like Brooks and Dunn use session musicians to record all of their albums and then take a different set of musicians out on the road. I think there must be. The two groups of players have different pay scales, work different hours, endure different trials and tribulations.

    It may be the "way its done" in Nashville and Hollywood but that doesn't mean that everyone in the process is happy with things working that way.

    So, as someone in that thread mentioned it is SUPER important in that kind of hot button topic that EVERYONE that posts honors and respects the talents of everyone involved. Posters should lean over backward to keep from insulting either one group or another.

    I'm sure in the topic I removed that no one was intentionally disrespecting anyone but it seemed to me that folks were being pretty insensitive to both groups.

    Hot button topics are hard to discuss without hurting a lot of feelings and starting flame wars, but many times they are the important things to talk about.

    Hope that I haven't been insensitive in my discussion here, and I hope that everyone involved in that now removed thread will spend some time thinking about how what they said could have been worded more appropriately to keep from stepping on so many toes.

    Thanks
    Paul Green
     
  2. Jakedog

    Jakedog Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Well said Paul.

    I would like everyone who saw said thread to know, that if I personally said (typed) anything that touched a nerve with either group, such was not my intention. I did my best to illustrate that although I am firmly rooted (and always will be) with one camp, I have nothing but admiration and respect for the other. It was not my intention to be disrespectful or insulting to anyone here, or anywhere else, and I sincerely hope that none of the parties involved felt any ill coming from my direction. I know that at some point I'll be treading water in the deep end of the pool in question, and that being the case, I try hard not to pee in it.

    Jake
     
  3. 0le FUZZY

    0le FUZZY Former Member

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    <li>Thank yew Paul !!
    <li>Whence folks paint with a broad brush they sumtimes miss the liddo cracks and details.
    <li>I fer won preciate yew bean here and on the spot.

    A.D.Barron
     
  4. Mark Davis

    Mark Davis Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Back in the good old days when people were more interested in making music than $$ the same people that played on the albums for the most part were the same people you saw live.

    I dont remember anyone playing Jimi Hendrix's guitar parts for him in the studio??

    I know it can never return to that but the old what you see is what you get should apply here.

    What I am saying if you cant read between the lines is a band any band should use the same players on the road that record on the album cd or tape.
     
  5. telle52

    telle52 TDPRI Member

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    I guess its like ying and yang. both do different things for the same end result. my thing is that im in a band full time and i help write songs so i would not want my singer to record with session players for the simple reason that i want to hear my playing on the CD, im not the best player and i sure these session guys could make me sound like a two bit beginner(them session boys know their stuff) but im proud of my playing and want me and others to hear it. i want my mom to be able to say "thats my son playing that guitar" yall know what i mean? hey if we all wanted the same thing we would all get killed in the rush.PEACE! :)
     
  6. freshmattyp

    freshmattyp Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    While I agree with this statement in principle, if you look at the whole of recorded music, it much more likely that the band on stage is not the band in the studio. Beach Boys anyone?

    As with everything I say YMMV.
     
  7. telewacked

    telewacked Tele-Holic

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    too bad

    I did not see the thread in question and I'm disappointed that Paul felt he had to remove it, though I appreciate and support his decision. My dissapointment is because I find these types of threads where "pro" musicians discuss their experiences to be the most interesting type of post to read on TDPRI. I truly wish there was a way to keep them on a less controversial level so that we could all enjoy the posts and learn from the various types of "celebrity" pro's, many of whom have the dream jobs that some of us gave up on or weren't lucky enough or talented enough to achieve ourselves.
     
  8. TDPRI

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    Actually Mark. It's been this way for a LONG time. Take the Beach Boys for example. All those hit records were recorded with studio musicians. Not the Beach Boys.

    Of course the Monkeys were that way, but a great deal of the songs we know and loved on the radio were all recorded with a long list of studio musicans. Not the groups we saw in concert.

    Even though the Beatles and the Stones started out playing all their own stuff it didn't stay that way for long. I still remember being surprised that it was Eric Clapton playing on "While My Guitar Gently Weeps." I thought it was George's guitar that was weeping.

    Paul Green
     
  9. petebradt

    petebradt Former Member

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    I prefer the road band be used

    But sometimes it's not possible.

    Lee Roy Parnell used to use his road band when it was the original Hot Links. He still uses the Hot Links but they're not his road band any more.

    Delbert McClinton still does. Some use some members of the road band and not others.

    I'm sure it varies all over the place. I can only speak for myself but the few in Nashville who are my buddies are the guys I want to get the work.

    Of course, what WE want makes no difference. The performers and in many cases, the labels dictate who plays what.

    In some ways I can understand it, because I did it myself with a song I wrote. the other guitar player in my band really wasn't up to the task of playing a solo on this song,, ON THE RECORD. He's not really used to playing this kind of music yet (more of a shredder) and tasteful playing is not his strong point, nor is clean, precise rhythm playing.

    So, I had a friend of mine do it, who could fill the bill better. In any case, no matter what, you have to SERVE THE SONG.

    For me that's the final bottom line. the rest is debatable, but serving the song is not.
     
  10. Lyle Caldwell

    Lyle Caldwell Tele-Holic

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    That's a bit misleading, Paul, as that is the only track in the entire Beatles catelog where someone else played a "Beatle" instrument (well, that and the Andy White drumming on their first single). Clapton was invited to play and refused credit, but George was certainly capable of playing that part (check out Something, for instance).

    Other than classical and Indian classical musicians for some orchestrated tunes (Eleanor Rigby, Day in the Life, Within You and Without You, for instance), and Brian Jones on Sax (You Know My Name, Look Up My Number), the Beatles played everything on their albums, with George Martin adding some occasional keys and Billy Preston playing keys on Let It Be.

    And the Stones had some guest muscians in the early 70s like Ry Cooder, and had worked with Stu on piano since the beginning.

    But neither group falls in the Monkeys/Beach Boys mold.
     
  11. GopherTele

    GopherTele Tele-Afflicted

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    I agree on the sensitivity--this is their livelihood afteral

    But at some point no one is going to want to say anything since someone might, could, possibly somehow be "offended".
     
  12. TDPRI

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    Yeah, I realize it. I was just going to the extreme on that example.

    I always expected studio musicians to play on Monkees tracks because they were really a make believe band. But I was quite surprised to learn that the Beach Boys were not all playing those parts on those songs.

    The important thing here is that when people post about the talent involved in any performance that they use extreme caution in their wording and spread the credit around so that one group isn't pitted against the other.

    Paul Green
     
  13. JohnK24

    JohnK24 Friend of Leo's

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    Thank you sir...
     
  14. Mike Dickerson

    Mike Dickerson Tele-Meister

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    I have played in a band that used Nashville studio musicians on our recordings. I would love to have played on everything but once you get in that studio enviroment you kind of understand why. The pace is different, your road guitars and amps may be the hottest, best thing going but honestly if its been on the road its proably not studio tweaked for no buzzes,hums,etc. Not that road guys dont have the talent, because most are more than capable,but time is money and if you dont think the music business is just that-a business- then you can continue to starve for your art while the road guys and session guys continue to feed their families. Also a lot of times its hard to schedule the road guys time when they are not on the road to record.
     
  15. TDPRI

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    Re: I agree on the sensitivity--this is their livelihood aft

    A little common courtesy and sensitivity is all anyone is talking about. That and when a poster puts their foot in it... and causes hurt feelings, that they go back and immediately EDIT their post that is so obviously offending others. It's one thing to apologize, but here we can even re-write history with the EDIT button.

    We all fall into these traps, not just here but with our spouses, our bosses, our teachers, our kids, our parents and even our friends. It's not unique to the TDPRI.

    Paul Green
     
  16. jhundt

    jhundt Doctor of Teleocity

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    I missed it...

    I guess the road guys wished they were asked to play in the studio, but they weren't. I don't expect that the studio guys wished they were asked to go on the road....

    I always wished that I could go on the road... or in the studio... anything!

    My ex-bro-in-law was music director for a very well-known female middle-of-the-road boring pop singer. He did all the live work - Vegas, Atlantic City, tours, TV, etc. Wrote all the charts, did all the arrangements, led the band, dealt with the locally-hired musicians. Never played a note on any album. He seemed to think that was normal.

    Paul, keep 'em all straight. Good work, now maybe some one of them will reintroduce the subject and everyone will respond with dignity and decency, and all of us wanabees can enjoy and learn from the guys who are out there doing it...
     
  17. geddins

    geddins Friend of Leo's

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    I missed it as well....

    except for the very first post...

    I hate that Paul had to remove it, because I, like others have mentioned enjoy reading about this kind of thing.

    Maybe we can start over? I enjoy reading about the experiences "pro" players have, both on the road and in the studio.....guess it kinda gives me a way to live vicariously (sp?) through you guys... :D
     
  18. CharlieO

    CharlieO Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    Re: I missed it...

    That's why I'm still here on this board after all these years. I've learned just about everything I want to know about Telecasters and have heard it all discussed over and over, but what keeps me here are the always-interesting contributions of professional studio players and touring musicians. My life used to involve regular contact with these guys, but it doesn't any more. This board has allowed me to continue to learn from these guys and to share in their experiences in the studio and on the road. We need them around here, and let's continue to welcome their contributions. No need to kiss their feet, just show a little respect.
     
  19. TDPRI

    TDPRI Retired

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    I too wish that this could be discussed further. I think its an interesting topic. Imagine when Brooks and Dunn are in a room with both their Studio musicians and their Touring musicians. They have to walk a thin line to not praise one at the expensive of the other. And visa versa. It's that way here.

    As an ad agency owner I had senior artists that were very talented and junior artists that were great technicians. Both made my company sucessful and both were valuable to me personally. But I could never compare their talents in direct terms. That would be offensive to everyone.

    Paul Green
     
  20. blue water girl

    blue water girl Tele-Afflicted

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    THATS A NON-ISSUE -- DOESN'T HAPPEN

    They've never been in the same room together!!!!! That doesn't ever happen with any of the road bands and session musicians. The artist's band is never in the studio when these albums are being made. The jobs are completely separate and different. People can't just hang out and watch while songs are being recorded. And after two or three days of working with an artist, the album is finished (the music part - the vocals can take months more to add) and the the session musicians are off to another project and artist, they usually won't see the artist again for sometimes a year or more unless they run into them at a party, restaurant, or awards show, etc. If they aren't called for the next album they might not ever see the artist again in person.

    It probably seems like Nashville is a big hotel lobby with everybody that works on albums and playing for artists all waving at each other and eating lunch together and sharing a work space together. it just isn't like that at all. There are so many studios people are spread out everywhere, the musicians have all their meals catered in for the master sessions so they are very isolated while doing an album. It's not like they will run into Vince Gill and Keith Urban if they go down the hall to the bathroom.

    Brooks and Dunn is with their band a huge amount of time, for months on end, and Brent and the other musicians on the album might see them three or four days in a year if that many. So I am sure they have the opportunity to praise their band members all the time. They are only with the guys in the studio a few days in a very private setting so whatever they say there stays there - like Vegas! Whenever I have been at a session the guys are praised but no one is going overboard because it's tense and pressured and the artists always seem really stressed out - maybe they aren't but they seem that way most of the time. Very serious and concerned looking. Most of the time they still haven't narrowed down their song choices for the album, and they might work up 20 songs and then decide later based on what the players have been able to do with the songs which ones are the standouts and then pick the top 10 to 12 for the album. They are really depending on the session guys to breathe life into the songs. They are not in a social frame of mind at that time. The main praise the studio guys get is being hired in the first place.

    They also rarely ever get any credit for the work they do. Most people - probably almost all the people - who buy the albums and go to the concerts or listen on the radio don't know the first thing about session players and could care less. And it should show people what a humble bunch of guys they are that they don't make any effort to promote themselves or go around saying they are playing on this or that and that the artist doesn't actually play the guitar, they are just pantomining on the music videos and that they create all the licks you hear, etc. It's been going on for decades and no one really knows much about the recording studio and how it works because it's not talked about in an open way. Most of the studio players love that because they may get recognized by certain groups of people who are into music or whatever, but most people are oblivious to what they do or who they are so they can live somewhat of a normal life. Their names might be known, but not their faces. They aren't interested in being noticed.
     
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