Blackvibe vs Blackface

Discussion in 'Shock Brother's DIY Amps' started by robrob, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. tweedy_woodpecker

    tweedy_woodpecker TDPRI Member

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    From: https://robrobinette.com/RR763_BLACKVIBE.htm

    "Design Philosophy: The 1963 Fender AB763 blackface Vibroverb is my favorite amp of all time. It will be forever linked to Stevie Ray Vaughan's amazing tone but building a blackface Vibroverb is a daunting task, even for an experienced amp builder. I designed the RR763 Blackvibe amp for builders who don't want to deal with the complexity of the AB763 circuit's reverb, tremolo and dual channels but still want its authentic Normal channel tone. Throw a Strymon Flint reverb & tremolo pedal in front of the Blackvibe and you have a Vibroverb Vibrato channel too."

    But just Norm would be a great name too...
     
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  2. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    SRV played the Vibrato channel of whatever Fender Reverb amp he played as far as I know as witnessed the one time I saw him and Double Trouble in a small club here in Lubbock quite a while before he hit the big time. Different animal, imho...even without the mods that Cesar Diaz did to his AB763 Vibroverbs.
    So...for an old Texas boy like me...the Normal channel out of any BF/SF Fender Reverb amp is not the SRV thing. It ain’t got the vibe!
    Nothing serious.....just when I hit the thread button I was thinking we would be talking about a BF amp with vibrato...er...tremolo.
     
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  3. drf64

    drf64 Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    Blackvibe Twin, anyone?
     
  4. peteb

    peteb Friend of Leo's

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    Great point Wally.

    I really like the name Black Vibe. It adds to the mystique about what it’s all about.



    I think the recreation of the normal channel in a normal channel only amp is a great idea. I just wonder if there is more. Taking away a feature should add to the base sound of the amp. I think higher fidelity, increased gain are both possible.



    I think this amp is a really great idea.



    Hats off to Rob!
     
  5. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Pete, I know exactly what happens when those effects are removed. In a two channel Bf with Vibrato but not Reverb, the Vib channel does have less gain than does the Normal. They are both voiced alike....waste of a channel, imho. In the Reverb amps, the third gain stage that is added in the Vib channel results in that channel being very slightly hotter than the Normal channel. Some people disconnect the .vibrato effect with a switching pot so as to increase that gain...and then the difference between the channels’ gain is more pronounced. Rob probably has that old trick in his pages.
    I have no problem with what this single channel Normal channel, which is also found in the Normal channel of the AA864 and AA165 Bassman circuit’s, does. I am wondering what the connection to SRV and the name is for the circuit. And...it is no consequence. I have a 1964 Dual Showman in a 2X10 Pro Sonic with a much hotter Normal channel due to the mods. Both channels are much richer than stock if wanted due to another mod. BIG VIBE!!!!
     
  6. bftfender

    bftfender Friend of Leo's

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    the weber f150 is a great speaker in a fender
     
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  7. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    And the next question is: “Which Weber F150?”. Weber offers so many options that ime it is a confusing thing to say that say a 12f150 is a great speaker or a 12f150 does this or that. Ex: a Fender 2 x 12 reverb amp came in with two Weber 12f150’s in it......and each speaker had its own character.....one was a T suffix, one was another option.
    Imho, when discusssing Weber speaker’s, it is necessary to know what distortion option was ordered, what doping option was ordered, etc. because those options in effect create a different speaker.
     
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  8. bftfender

    bftfender Friend of Leo's

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    i use light doping...i feel it retains character but has a tiny quick pull back & helps with the bottom not flub. My Pro is insane with a pair..like so clean but i sometime peek back & hear shades of jtm45ish grind. Had Emi TH, WGS,& various others & when we put these in..we were like..did it just move this amp tonally ..Always been a Marshall player until this Pro & the 2 Supers..the 74 with the Jupiter 10sc is so good. I never had the Fender clean before combined with the mid hump i need for our music. I have crossed over to Fender amps---i tilt em back & wow what a great stage sound at just the right level with drums. Speakers were so important..i don't think i would of gone F if it wasn't for the Weber & Jupiter speakers..they allowed me to hit the OD/grind 73pro2 (3).jpg i need but also not alter what a fender does best.
     
  9. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    FWIW, bftfender..and not to go too far astray from the thread, but that Pro of yours can have two very different channels. One of them can have a midrange emphasis with earlier breakup....simple mods that make a very versatile and truly two channel amp.
     
  10. LudwigvonBirk

    LudwigvonBirk Tele-Holic

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    Attached Files:

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  11. peteb

    peteb Friend of Leo's

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    On the two bassman circuits you mention, signal is lost, the gain is dropped, when the two channels are combined. A single channel amp does not need to lose signal in this way. Gain is there for the taking.
     
  12. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Pete, the two BF Bassman amp’s that I pointed to have channels that are out of phase....3 gain stages I. The Bass channel and only two in the Normal channel. When the AB165 Bassman was designed, they gave the Normal channel a third gain stage...hot guitar amp with channels that are in phase. All of the Bassman amps running 2X6L6’s fro: the AB165 through the Bassman 50 have 3 gain stages. Starting with the Bassman 10 ans Super Bassman amp’s, all Bassmans have only two gain stages in each channel.
     
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  13. peteb

    peteb Friend of Leo's

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    I’m not sure if you got my point Wally. Any of these bassman heads lose gain when the two channels are combined, regardless of the number of stages. Rob’s development of the blackvibe circuit showed this. Rob found that in order to maintain the black face sound in a one channel amp, he had to insert a resistor or two where the channels are combined or else there would be too much signal into the LTPI. What I am saying is that there is gain and or fidelity left on the table and further development of the circuit might find some creative ways to make use of that missing gain.
     
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  14. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    And I have found that IF one wants to try and cop the SRV thing without outboard effects....trem and reverb....one will need to have an amp with reverb and trem in the circuit and three gain stages....and especially the reverb is needed. I’ll leave this at that...there is no SRV Vibe in this circuit without the reverb and trem there. The ‘Vibe’ thing is what attracted me to the thread...but there is none there.
    FWIW, the best straight up SRV tone I have ever heard out of one amp with nothing outside of that amp was with a 180 watt Fender Super Twin Reverb in the clean mode....dead on SRV tone to my ears. Lot of weight, though.
     
  15. robrob

    robrob Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    "Norm!" (from Cheers)

    The new Blacknorm amp. Hmmm.

    Build the Halfblack. Hmmmm.
     
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  16. tweedy_woodpecker

    tweedy_woodpecker TDPRI Member

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    I am in no way an expert on SRV or have been lucky enough to have seen the man live as you did, Wally. I think the name just came from the connection to the Vibroverb as Robs favourite amp and his goal to design a single channel amp from the Normal channel. I guess if you wanted to design an amp to specifically emulate those tones one could add another 12AX7 and get an extra gainstage to make it a Vibrato channel AB763 and maybe use the other triode to implement a Princeton style bias tremolo?

    So I do not mind too much if the name might be be appropriate or misleading, the amp sounds fine and thats what matters to me, no offense to anyone...

    BTW, here is the amp with the 5E3 cabinet plus the 66 BFDR I recorded:

    IMG_5219.jpg
    IMG_5238.jpg IMG_5241.jpg
    IMG_5248.jpg
    IMG_5236.jpg
    IMG_5220.jpg
     
  17. tweedy_woodpecker

    tweedy_woodpecker TDPRI Member

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    Norm is the new Black? :cool:
     
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  18. robrob

    robrob Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    From the Blackvibe webpage: "Throw a Strymon Flint reverb & tremolo pedal in front of the Blackvibe and you have a Vibroverb Vibrato channel too." I have never suggested you're going to get SRV tone by plugging straight into the amp.

    I didn't call it Blackvibro, Blackvibrato or Blackverb. The amp has a blackface vibe so there you go.

    On the webpage I mention that the 100k mid pot will add gain to match the blackface vibrato channel. I also suggest having a switch to disconnect the "Vibrato Channel Load resistor" to boost gain beyond the vibrato channel. If you want added gain it's there for the taking.
     
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  19. LudwigvonBirk

    LudwigvonBirk Tele-Holic

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    Nice stuff tweedyW, all aspects!

    If you don’t mind me asking: What is your total parts cost including shipping for this project (already-had parts don’t count- if you had to buy everything for it tomorrow, for your recommended config, what should one budget? Your labor not counted either cuz we *cough* don’t wanna ever count that :lol:)
     
  20. tweedy_woodpecker

    tweedy_woodpecker TDPRI Member

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    Thanks Ludwig, it's really hard to tell for me how much these parts would cost in the US since here in Europe we generally have a much higher sales tax and taxation on parts and labor to finance our social system and free health care.

    Also generally you have much more choices in brands for parts. Just take transformers: the only affordable company that I found which makes drop in replacements of Fender transformers so far is Hammond. Mercury, Allen and all the those other US brands are extremely expensive here.
    Take Weber speakers for example: The Weber 12F50 is is about 210$ (not including shipping) new from Germany :(
    They sell them for 120$ in the US...

    My guess would be around 650$ for the parts including the cabinet without the speaker, still a bit cheaper than a Mojotone kit I think.
     
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