1. Win a Broadcaster or one of 3 Teles! The annual Supporting Member Giveaway is on. To enter Click Here. To see all the prizes and full details Click Here. To view the thread about the giveaway Click Here.

Black Holes Are Hurting My Brain...

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Torren61, Dec 26, 2020.

  1. Mr. Lumbergh

    Mr. Lumbergh Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    8,561
    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Location:
    Initech, Inc.
    Even more mind-blowing, time becomes space in a black hole:

    :confused:
    Time dilation at the horizon is so severe that from an outside perspective, objects falling into the horizon appear frozen on the horizon, but if you were to jump in yourself (assuming you could survive the radiation from the matter heating up in the accretion disk) you wouldn't notice anything unusual, at least until the light from the universe you are basically leaving at that point also collapses to a point.

    The Big Bang? It might actually be what you mention. There just isn't enough understanding of physics to know.

    I'm pretty much a geek for this stuff, too. :D
     
    Toast likes this.
  2. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    9,015
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Location:
    Manheim Pa.
    Please show how liquid water can be compressed . This thing called surface tension gets in the way .
    You can aerate water and lower the surface tension or add a surfactant .
    Plutonium is not water .
    I would think that deuterium and tritium can't be compressed either as long as they are in a liquid state .
    You can change the state of water and then compress it and create steam . Release the pressure and the steam will revert to vapor and then to liquid .
     
  3. Skydog1010

    Skydog1010 Tele-Afflicted Gold Supporter

    Posts:
    1,921
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2019
    Location:
    Slightly south and east of where I wannabe

    Do not attempt this if you have severe quick onset edema, especially if you enter on a cool morning and attempt to egress on a hot humid afternoon. Just don't do it. The whole tunnel rat thingies just freaks me out anywho. (Pun intended)
     
    electrichead and Toto'sDad like this.
  4. Buckocaster51

    Buckocaster51 Super Moderator Staff Member Ad Free Member

    Age:
    69
    Posts:
    21,567
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Location:
    Iowa USA
    Admin Post
    From our friends at Wikipedia: The low compressibility of non-gases, and of water in particular, leads to their often being assumed as incompressible. The low compressibility of water means that even in the deep oceans at 4 km depth, where pressures are 40 MPa, there is only a 1.8% decrease in volume.

    But we’re talking about temperatures and pressures far surpassing the deep ocean.

    You are correct in thinking that under normal conditions at the surface most liquids and solids exhibit low compressibility.

    The conditions inside the event horizon are not “normal”.
     
    JL_LI and Asmith like this.
  5. jman72

    jman72 Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,672
    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Location:
    Central Florida
    No, time IS a real thing that is intimately intertwined with space, and as Alnico said, time slows down in a gravitational well. This was proven by a friend of mine (Glen Rebka) back in 1959 in an experiment at Harvard. Check it out:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound–Rebka_experiment
     
  6. Steerforth

    Steerforth Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,062
    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Location:
    Arkansas
    A lot of physicists have grave doubts about the actual existence of time. Here’s one book, and there are others.

    The Order of Time

    A lot has happened since 1959. Time marches on. :D
     
  7. MatsEriksson

    MatsEriksson Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,377
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Location:
    Sweden
  8. Musekatcher

    Musekatcher Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,996
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Location:
    meridianam altum centralis
    I had a buddy way back, started a Radon mitigation company. He had this woman, kept calling him, concerned "radons" were shooting from her TV and making her weak. He tried explaining what radon is, but the science she feared, was over her head, and she couldn't unlearn her mental concept of "radons". He finally referred her to the NRC. Running joke in my household when folk science emerges.
     
  9. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Doctor of Teleocity

    Posts:
    11,226
    Joined:
    May 12, 2013
    Location:
    Fort Worth, Texas
     
  10. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    9,015
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Location:
    Manheim Pa.
    Exactly .
    If water were compressible in a practical manner , ships could be so much lighter . Hull designs could be radically different .
    On the flip side , it is this inherent stability of water that makes life possible as we know if . Good old H2O is one very cool molecule .
    Bottom line is that we really know nothing of the conditions that you reference . We can only guess .
    I am going to step out on a ledge now and speculate . My hunch tells me that there is no specific point where the gravitational pull ends . I believe that it diminishes as you move away from the central point .
    An example , if I may . In orbit , a body is said to experience zero gravity , yet it is said that the gravitational effects of the Earth and it's Moon are what allows them to rotate around each other while an object located between them is claimed to experience zero gravity .
    If the universe is constantly expanding then it must continue to do so until acted upon be another force . That force will slow the expansion and cause compaction it is said . What force is doing this ? What is the event horizon of that force ? I could continue . Trust me that I do not claim to have the answers . That is far beyond me or what capability I have .
     
  11. jman72

    jman72 Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,672
    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Location:
    Central Florida
    Yes, a lot HAS happened since 1959- the experiment (and Einstein's theory of general relativity) have been confirmed MANY times to increasingly higher levels of precision. Time dilation due to gravity can now be measured at only a couple of feet. So, the existence of time has not been disproved, but rather supported by more experiments.

    And although I haven't read the book you referenced, a quick look at some of the reviews suggests that he "shows how modern physics has annihilated the common understandings of time ". That is very true of modern physics. But I strongly disagree that many physicists have doubts about the actual existence of time. None that I know, anyway.

     
  12. NoTeleBob

    NoTeleBob Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    750
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Location:
    Southwestern, USA
    [​IMG]
     
    aging_rocker likes this.
  13. NoTeleBob

    NoTeleBob Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    750
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Location:
    Southwestern, USA
    I was going to suggest the same thing. It's the kind of book you have to reread over and over to gain a little more knowledge... but worth the time (pun intended). The first few chapters are simple, but then it stretches your brain badly, starting with the part where Newton was wrong about gravity...
     
    SRHmusic likes this.
  14. jman72

    jman72 Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,672
    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2013
    Location:
    Central Florida
    This is not a "hunch", this is Newton's law of universal gravitation, published in 1686. I don't mean to sound snarky, but people have been studying this stuff for a long time and have figured out a lot. And a body in orbit does not experience zero gravity- the Earth's gravitational pull is exactly what keeps the object from flying out into space.
     
    Buckocaster51 and SRHmusic like this.
  15. SRHmusic

    SRHmusic Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    857
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2020
    Location:
    North Carolina, USA
    Yes, no need to go with hunches on this, and perhaps best not to. We do science exactly because our intuitions are often wrong(!).

    Right, Newton's law states gravity decreases with the square of the distance, and that is what explains what Kepler determined about planets' orbits being elliptical and sweeping out equal areas in equal times. Quite amazing stuff, really.

    The zero "gravity" in orbit refers to what it feels like with the gravitational and centrifugal forces in balance. The net force on an object is (near) zero in a stable orbit, so things float around in an orbiting space station, for example.

    For anyone interested, there is a ton of good and accessible literature, videos and free/open lectures in physics available, e.g. see MIT opencourseware, or search for online courses at most of the largest universities. Many of these schools make the materials and lecture videos free and charge only to take a course for credit.
     
    Toast, Buckocaster51 and jman72 like this.
  16. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    9,015
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Location:
    Manheim Pa.
    No snarky at all .
    Or the velocity of the object in orbit is what prevents gravity from pulling it to terra firms .
    I love this stuff , but have no appetite for the atmosphere that has been created for learning of it .
    Some of this , no doubt , has to do with my severe OSA and how it affected me for the first 50 years of my life . Granted , it was not known , and I harbor no anger . In fact , it is exactly the opposite , since I am grateful for the second chance that was granted me .
     
    Skydog1010 likes this.
  17. LightningPhil

    LightningPhil Tele-Meister

    Posts:
    381
    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2018
    Location:
    Nottingham, UK
    It’s been years since thinking about such stuff. But a masters in cosmology does help my own understanding. In essence, there are 4 conclusions:

    1) Meh
    2) A singularity is probably not really a single point. More of a quantum foam around a point and so can have inertia and avoid infinities. Just don’t attempt the math.
    3) The further down the rabbit hole you go, the more cavernous the questions and misty the answers get.
    4) If conclusion 1 is going to be your first conclusion, don’t buy an enormous telescope.

    I wish I’d known conclusion 4 before going telescope shopping.
     
    SRHmusic and Skydog1010 like this.
  18. Skydog1010

    Skydog1010 Tele-Afflicted Gold Supporter

    Posts:
    1,921
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2019
    Location:
    Slightly south and east of where I wannabe
    As already posted, I find the capacity of our brains to even desire to theorize about such physical properties, grasp or attempt to grasp the concepts of a boundless universe, or a universe connected to a parallel universe, the relative time passed to the speed obtained while passing over the event horizon of a black hole, the endless proofs of additional super sub atomic particals of matter that we can hold in our hands... amazing gift we all have.

    [mod redaction]

    I'm tickled shell pink we figured out the "Flat Earth" conundrum, and air travel, and autonomous vehicles being so close to widespread reality, the list goes on and on.

    Amazing thing we carry on our shoulders, use it wisely.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2020
  19. Buckocaster51

    Buckocaster51 Super Moderator Staff Member Ad Free Member

    Age:
    69
    Posts:
    21,567
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Location:
    Iowa USA
  20. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    9,015
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Location:
    Manheim Pa.
    I love the random access gray matter program and it's capacity to continue to search for the impossible .
     
    Skydog1010 likes this.
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.