Binding Bleed Questions

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by GAS Giant, Sep 25, 2021.

  1. GAS Giant

    GAS Giant Tele-Meister

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    Howdy all...A couple of questions about finishes that bleed into the binding.

    I recently looked at an R9 Les Paul that had very significant binding bleed where the red stain on the neck had leeched/wicked into the fret board binding. What causes this? Why does this only happen in rare instances? I presume that there is no fix.

    Next...I have a new blue Rickenbacker (new to me). The color is rare (one year run) and it plays really well. Nonetheless, it is not an essential guitar and my fat fingers make a mess of it, so it will probably be sold someday. The body is single bound and the blue finish has leeched into the binding so thoroughly that it looks intentional, like a blue moon fade. Again, I presume that this is not reversible in any way. There are also plenty of wear around the binding (the guitar has definitely been played over its life - frets still great, no other functional or cosmetic issues - it's a great 360). How much do you think that this impacts value? Does it matter?

    It's not really a relic look, but is the result of actual normal wear and tear. Rickenbackers, like everything, just exploded in value this year. Rare color Rickenbackers seem to go for quite bit more than your standard finishes. I want to get a better sense of how I might price it.
     
  2. rze99

    rze99 Doctor of Teleocity

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    R9
    I’ve read that the bleed happened in the originals too and that for some ultras the bleed of red dye into the binding making it pinkish is authentically accurate and therefore desirable.
     
  3. eallen

    eallen Friend of Leo's

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    Pics go a long way to accurate input if you have any?

    Eric
     
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  4. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Poster Extraordinaire

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    Are they plastic bindings? Celluloid or PVC? I have lots of trouble with stains bleeding into maple or fiber purfling lines but have never seen it on plastic. Most binding is finished over with lacquer and the lacquer will turn amber with age but if you scrape it off the binding itself is still white. I'd like to see pictures too.
     
  5. old wrench

    old wrench Friend of Leo's

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    I've got an 2006 Gibson R9 (my old #9 :)) that has the same thing going on with the bleed into the bindings.

    I believe that a substantial part, if not all, of that "bleed" comes from the red mahogany tint in the lacquer finish coats.

    It's a regular cherry sunburst finished Les Paul, and it's aged very gracefully.

    Although it doesn't spend much time in it's case - I've always taken good care of it - but, after being played regularly for 15 years, it's taken on a subtle worn and played appearance that would be extremely hard to duplicate by "relicing" ;).

    Excellent guitars :)


    .
     
  6. Crobbins

    Crobbins Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Here's the bleed of the dye into the binding on my 2014 R9 Les Paul.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. GAS Giant

    GAS Giant Tele-Meister

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    I was told today that Rickenbacker uses a catalyzed lacquer, which is hard to work with??? I will post a photo shortly. Thank you.
     
  8. Addnine

    Addnine Tele-Holic

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    I don't worry about such things, but that's actually pretty extensive. I have no idea, though, how a collector would feel about it. I'd mind if it were new, but it ain't, so play on I guess.
     
  9. GAS Giant

    GAS Giant Tele-Meister

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    20210925_175614.jpg 20210925_175632.jpg 20210925_180054.jpg 20210925_181610.jpg So this is something a little different, a bit of a mystery...I have never seen anything like this. On a Les Paul, the red dye leeches into the plastic. With the Ric, something else is going on. You can see from the main phot that I am obviously geeked out about a Blue Rickenbacker (which promptly came to life through an AC30 rather than my initial demo with a Fender).

    When you look at the guitar, there is a lacquer that might have been intended to have a little blue at the edges. I am not sure if the lacquer was tinted; it might have been. It does not adhere to the plastic now. I am able to simply scrape it off on the sides of the neck with minimal force behind a finger nail. I could strip this off of the neck in 15 minutes.

    When removing a little, no paint comes with it and it doesn't chip; it peels off everywhere there is plastic and nowhere over paint or wood. I don't know if it had issues to begin with or it chemically degraded over time.

    On the sides of the body, it is largely the same story. Near the top/neck joint, it looks very natural is not flaky. Everywhere else it just wants to come off and will with playing, setting on a stand, etc. I have never seen such a thin, delicate, and flaky lacquer, just blue dust. The plastic underneath looks great and is totally untinted.

    Ever seen anything like this? What to do now?

    20210925_175614.jpg
     
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  10. Freeman Keller

    Freeman Keller Poster Extraordinaire

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    The picture of the Rick shows the bleed into the lacquer over the binding, not the binding itself. I don't know what is going on in Crobbin's picture of the lester. I'm used to seeing the lacquer turn amber like this old les paul - look at the side of the neck where the finish is worn off

    IMG_4487.JPG
     
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  11. stratisfied

    stratisfied Tele-Afflicted

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    I think people want to call it "binding bleed" rather than sloppy workmanship or an attempt to make a guitar appear "vintage" when processes were more manual.

    I've owned Gibson Les Pauls and 335's and also Epiphone Rivieras, Dots and Casinos that have that same obvious crimson red overlap of the binding on cherry finishes. The Epiphones are masked, the Gibson are scraped. In both cases, they let the finish overlap the bindings for a smooth, consistent edge rather than fall right at joint between the binding and body which can sometimes result in a ragged edge. Sometimes, the overlap excessive sometimes it is subtle. It just depends on the finisher.

    It's no different than the '61/SG/Les Paul Customs that have half the neck binding covered in finish (sometimes right up to the marker dots). No one calls it binding bleed because it's creme or black, not bright red and it's obviously a finishing defect.
     
  12. Boreas

    Boreas Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    I have to say - ugh...
     
  13. GAS Giant

    GAS Giant Tele-Meister

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    Thanks..no one has clarified that for me before. None of my cherry finish LPs ever had it, but the R9 I played a few months ago was kool-aid red throughout the neck binding, which was off-putting. The shop had nothing substantive to say about it (it was an early 2010s guitar, I think), but the price for an otherwise good R9 was pretty low (around $5k).

    On my Ric, I have never seen such a thing...it does scrape right off around the neck binding with a clean separation between the paint. I think there was nothing intentional about it, just a finish error that should have been scraped at the factory..it comes off as I play, so I am going to remove the rest. Thanks again.
     
  14. stratisfied

    stratisfied Tele-Afflicted

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    I'll bet the bindings are clean under that finish. That looks like someonerushed the drying step between the tinted lacquer and the clear, or the lacquer was way too hot (too much solvent) and it dissolved the clean, scraped edge of the finish on the binding into the clear. In that level of instrument, it is an attempt to simulate an aged finish.
     
  15. PCollen

    PCollen Friend of Leo's

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    The red from the sunburst bled into the body binding on my old Hamer Sunburst. I loved it..added very much to its aged appearance. I had a 72/73 Blond Telecaster with finish stains from the red inside padding of the case. That guitar was not kept in a climate controlled environment for the first few years of my ownership of it.
     
  16. modavis99

    modavis99 Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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    On the R9 the binding bleed is from the aniline die. This happened on my R0. This is supposedly historically accurate. The wisdom on the myLesPaul forum is that the binding bleed starts as you play the guitar and it will go away as you play the guitar.
     
  17. Crobbins

    Crobbins Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    The bleeding happens after you play the guitar for a while. The heat from your hand seems to cause the aniline dye to bleed. The binding was white when the guitar was new. It doesn't bother me at all.
     
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