Best Alnico Speaker For Deluxe Reverb Build

Discussion in 'Amp Tech Center' started by sprice4816, Mar 12, 2013.

  1. sprice4816

    sprice4816 TDPRI Member

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    Been a while since my last post on here. But I'm getting ready to start building me a blackface deluxe reverb clone and I'm having trouble deciding on a speaker. My previous amp was a Super Reverb with the giant JBL 10's. Up until yesterday I had decided on a 12" speaker instead of a 15", so I started shopping for 12's.
    I had it narrowed down between a Weber 12A125A (30 W, $108) and their 12A150 (25 W, $208). But reading forums and reviews scared me away from the 12A125A because everyone was hating on it for lacking the bass of the 12A150 (bigger magnet, bigger voice coil) so now i'm thinking about building a slightly taller cabinet and put in a 15A125A (15", 30 W, almost identical to 12A125A but 15", $123) so I can make up for the bass as well as get a totally unique tone (AB763 into 6v6's into a 15"). I'd rather not pay $208 for a speaker.
    Basically what I'm asking is would there be a considerable difference in bass with two identical speakers except for one being a 12 and the other a 15? and also if anybody has any other suggestions on a good alnico for a deluxe reverb?
     
  2. surfneptune

    surfneptune Banned

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    Are you sure you want an Alnico?
    My favorite speaker for the DR is a C12N Jensen
     
  3. waparker4

    waparker4 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I like the Weber 12F150
     
  4. fezz parka

    fezz parka ---------------------------

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  5. Telenut62

    Telenut62 Poster Extraordinaire

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    A DR doesn't lack bass.....well mine doesn't, maybe a DRRI does? Are you planning on gigging or just at home use? If for at home, a vintage P12Q is superb.
     
  6. BiggerJohn

    BiggerJohn Friend of Leo's

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    I have a P12N in mine. An original, not an italian. Love it.

    I believe the Weber 12A150 would be a good one as well.

    For the most punch, you will want an alnico 12 with a big magnet and coil. An R or Q may be a bit light. I'd say you definitely want the 1.5 inch (or larger) coil and the big ring magnet.

    I have also heard DRs with JBL D120s installed and they sounded great.

    I just recently saw a guy put a K120 into a Blues Jr. and it sounded good.

    I think a 15 with a 1.25 inch coil and plug magnet would be not optimal, that motor just does not have enough power for that big cone. If you want low end, steer clear of small coils and magnets.
     
  7. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I really like the Cannabis Rex I just installed in my BC60 and Eminence just came out with an Alnico version of it called a Canis Major. You may want to give that one a look. The Eminence site has some sound clips you can listen to.

    CANIS MAJOR™

    The Eminence Canis Major guitar speaker lets you express your smooth groove. Clean, full vintage tone with fat, warm lows, woody mids and tame, smooth highs. Perfect for any genre where cool rules

    Specifications:
    Nominal Basket Diameter 12", 305mm
    Nominal Impedance* 8 ohms
    Power Rating**
    Watts 50W
    Music Program N/A
    Resonance 105Hz
    Usable Frequency Range 80Hz - 4kHz
    Sensitivity*** 101.7dB
    Magnet Weight 35 oz.
    Gap Height 0.31", 7.92mm
    Voice Coil Diameter 1.75", 44.5mm
    Thiele & Small Parameters
    Resonant Frequency (fs) 104.86Hz
    DC Resistance (Re) 6.45
    Coil Inductance (Le) 0.61mH
    Mechanical Q (Qms) 10.16
    Electromagnetic Q (Qes) 0.71
    Total Q (Qts) 0.66
    Compliance Equivalent Volume (Vas) 34.08 liters / 1.2 cu.ft.
    Peak Diaphragm Displacement Volume (Vd) 42cc
    Mechanical Compliance of Suspension (Cms) 0.09mm/N
    BL Product (BL) 12.6 T-M
    Diaphragm Mass Inc. Airload (MMs) 26.6 grams
    Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP) 147.6
    Maximum Linear Excursion (Xmax) 0.8mm
    Surface Area of Cone (Sd) 532.36 cm2
    Maximum Mechanical Limit (Xlim) N/A
    Mounting Information
    Recommended Enclosure Volume
    Sealed Acceptable
    Vented Acceptable
    Driver Volume Displaced 136.7 cu.in. / 2.24 liters
    Overall Diameter 12.03", 305.5mm
    Baffle Hole Diameter 11.07", 281.1mm
    Front Sealing Gasket Fitted as standard
    Rear Sealing Gasket Fitted as standard
    Mounting Holes Diameter 0.25", 6.4mm
    Mounting Holes B.C.D. 11.59", 294.3mm
    Depth 6.22", 157.99mm
    Net Weight 9.3 lbs, 4.2 kg
    Shipping Weight 10.2 lbs, 4.63 kgs
    Materials of Construction
    Coil Construction Copper voice coil
    Coil Former Paper former
    Magnet Composition Alnico magnet
    Core Details Non-vented core

    Basket Materials Pressed steel basket
    Cone Composition Hemp cone ™
    Cone Edge Composition Paper cone edge
    Dust Cap Composition Zurette dust cap
     
  8. sprice4816

    sprice4816 TDPRI Member

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    i understand most people do like ceramics in a DR for some reason, but i can't play anything other than alnico, i guess i'm just a snob. i think i'm gonna bite the bullet and spend the extra $100 on the 12a150, like biggerjohn said. I didn't know that about the voice coil and magnet size. I appreciate all of your help.
     
  9. waparker4

    waparker4 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Sounds like good advice. I've played my drri through a small magnet alnico that can handle about 30 watts. The trebly overdrive sounds good but its lacking the bass of the heavier 50 watt weber 12f150

    Only 1 persons hearing so imo
     
  10. mabley123

    mabley123 Friend of Leo's

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    if i ws building a blackface deluxe reverb clone i would go with what was the original speaker upgrade for that amp if i could....and that was the jbl d120f...:D:D or i would make it unique. but still with an original vintage tone in mind....i assume thats why you built or will build the blackface circuit...and the original upgrade was a jbl....and while i will push for the jbls the original vintage jensen, cts emminence and ect are enough to handle 22 watts....you can make that 22 watts sound like 50 with the right speaker.

    that speaker would be the jbl e130.

    ted weber says the jbl d120f is the best sounding speaker ever made.....i personally use 4 x 12 jbl e120 in an old sound city cabinet and i also have an old carvin cabinet with altec lansing 2 x 15 418-8h wth a blackfaced 69 dual showman reverb with a trainwreck mod on the second channel.
    jbl e120's have a 4 inch voice coil and about an 18lb magnet ( im not bothered by weight.... and i also have a cyber twin ) and 103 db of sensitivity....it has the same voice coil and magnet as the jbl e130 15 in. but the e130 is 105 db sensitivity. which with its 2 db better sensitivity..that is noticable and i believe the most efficient speaker ever made.

    the old amps with the jbl's are the most sought after and were the original upgrades from 65- late 70's or early 80's.

    i bet a deluxe with either a jbl d130f, e130 also the k series 130 would have an awsome sound through a deluxe.

    i 22 watt deluxe with a jbl e130 15 would be as loud as any 45 watt amp with any speaker that has a db reading of 103db or less. which means the deluxe with the jbl will be louder than many 45 watt amps because of speaker efficiency....... 2 db is audibly noticable. a 22 watt deluxe would be equal to a 44 watt amp with speakers that are 103 db efficiency....say a jbl e120..and that is saying something because the e120 is probably the most efficient 12 ever made.

    but if you put the jbl in the 44 watt amp you are toast.


    basically from what i understand and this is a simplification.

    if you have xxxxxx speaker that is putting out say 125 db at full output running with 100 watts..... to increase the db rating by 2.2db.....you will have to DOUBLE your watts. this means you would have to run 200 watts rms cranked to increase 2.2db. most speakers could never take that.

    so when you think about it...it is sometimes easier to get a more efficient speaker to increase loudness without having to increase the watts.

    and all this running of my mouth is just a suggestion on making a really highly efficient amp that will scare some people when you say its only 22 watts.

    it would be a really really loud deluxe reverb with a jbl e130 in it. it would be loud with the e120 but the e130 would be scary and a very unique amp.

    i like my dual showman reverb with the 15's and ive had these 15's since new in 74....they are more like the df jbls as compared to the e series...while the altecs are less efficient they have their own unique voice and 100 watts doesnt make them move.

    for a brand new speaker i like tone tubby, ev, fane...also 1 day when my jbl cones wear out i will put tone tubby hemp cones on them ( if im still around ) ...thats what santana uses..jbl e120 with tone tubby hemp cones. but my altecs from the mid 70's are still going strong as are the e120s so it will be a while.

    also an electrovoice ev evm 12L is a great speaker too......it really a toss up between tone tubby and the ev......fane is also very good and is what came in hiwatts.

    but im a jbl altec or ev fane guy mostly.

    ive had bad experiences with cts, jensen...while ok or low powered amps the stock 1's that came in the old twin reverbs ect.....if you play your amp cranked alot...often...they will never last...i waited 3 months for a new carvin amp with 2 x 15's in 71...turned up my brand new amp on 11 and boom...the speakers instantly blew. so i bought the altecs and they still work and have never had a problem...same thing for jensen...got a custom 50 in 72...turned it up on 11...same thing....most people never crank their amps...i do and for long periods...say 2 hours 4 days a week.

    so i made up my own little torture test similar to but not as rough as ev's testing and i can tell you few speakers can last. and i havent done this in a long while and i have the luxury of being abl to crank a 1000 watt amp if i had 1 for any extended period of time.

    i dime my amp..100 watts turn all the bass on treble and everything else off off run any and all pedals i may have...do this for an hour..hitting the string hard as to try and make the cones jump....excursion i think it is called....then for another hour i mess with all the pedals and in general try and find the things think will make the speaker(s) work the hardest and cause heat and excursion.then for 4 hours after that...i get a loope. sample some stuff use all the pedals again and run this full volume for 4 hours..


    here is what electrovoice does.

    In musical instrument systems, unlike sound
    reinforcement systems, it is advisable to use
    speakers that are rated for at least as much
    power as your amplifier output rating. It is also
    widely known that heavily overdriven tube amplifiers
    are usually capable of double their rated
    output power, and sometimes more. In this
    situation, the user would be wise to use speakers
    having a combined rating of two times the
    amplifier output. The new EVM series has a
    long-term rms power rating of 300 watts. This
    assures that the speaker has more than enough
    “thermal headroom” to be confidently used with
    virtually any guitar amplifier currently available.
    To our knowledge, Electro-Voice was the first
    U.S. manufacturer to develop and publish a
    power test closely related to real-life conditions.
    Specifically, the EVM is designed to withstand
    the power test described in EIA RS-426-
    A 1980. The EIA test spectrum is applied for
    eight hours. This shaped signal is sent to a
    power amplifier with the continuous power set
    at 300 watts into the 6 ohms EIA equivalent
    impedance (42.5 volts true rms). Amplifier clipping
    sets instantaneous peaks at 6 dB above
    the continuous power, or 1,200 watts peak
    (85.0 volts peak). This procedure provides a
    rigorous test of both thermal and mechanical
    failure modes.....brutal.
     
  11. Ed Storer

    Ed Storer Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    When I was playing a DRRI, I put an Eminence Li'l Texas neodymium speaker in it. Sounded great, well balanced. And it weighs 7 pounds less than the stock speaker - that makes a fair difference when you have to tote it across the parking lot and up the stairs.

    I sold the DRRI with the original speaker reinstalled, still have the Li'l Texas in the box it came in.
     
  12. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    An old Altec 817 with a paper dust cover...or an old 'coffee can' EV SRO Alnico. Spice, what is it about Alnicos that attracts you...sonically?

    I like Alnico speakers, too...but I am not against ceramics as long as they do what I like. An Eminence Legend GB128 in a DR circuit sounds great...big bottom, woody tones, smooth highs when pushed.
     
  13. uriah1

    uriah1 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    - Love my gold....and I have been through too many to count.
     
  14. pt ray

    pt ray NEW MEMBER!

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    Kinda of in the same boat. Finished a Deluxe Reverb build last month and really wanted an AlNiCo speaker. Was just about to drop the dime for a 12A150 until I saw everyone running the Eminence Canis Major for $189 shipped. It has a large voice coil and a nice 35 oz magnet. Weber uses a 40 oz on the 12A150 but 35 oz is still respectable. Plus it used a hemp cone which is something different so figured why not.

    How does it sound? Hard to say as I haven't spent a lot of time with it to break it in. It started off dark and sterile but the more I play it the more it's starting to come around.
     
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