Alchemist_PhD
Tele-Meister
Looking for LPB nitro, aerosol for now, but if I have to get a spray gun and set up then that’s what it is. Reranch has been in hiatus for a while.
Besides Reranch, any US Lake Placid Blue sellers??
- Thread starter Alchemist_PhD
- Start date
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Alchemist_PhD
Tele-Meister
Disregard, just discovered Gracey’s.
Gracey’s sure values their Paints... You might wanna try a local automotive finishing supply shop..
First, all those guys wanna be Dickie Betts too.. so will jump at the chance to help... no telling what may happen, heck, I've had 'em give the the small cans necessary to finish a few guitars...
r
First, all those guys wanna be Dickie Betts too.. so will jump at the chance to help... no telling what may happen, heck, I've had 'em give the the small cans necessary to finish a few guitars...
r
Alchemist_PhD
Tele-Meister
Yeah, it’s about $21.95 a can. Couple bucks more than Reranch.
I refinished a 62RI Strat in LPB with Gracey's in '19. This is the result on an alder body, no primer, about 3/4's of the can. I purposely didn't use primer or grain filler...wanted the finish to age faster. It will look greenish-blue for the first couple of coats...then take on that LPB color. It's since begun to sink into the grain since taking this picture & checking a little.
Really pleased with results. This was my first finish job. I used a thin layer of Deft gloss spray-on lacquer, runs about $15 on Amazon.
It's had both rosewood & maple on it...the maple neck worked best with the body.
Really pleased with results. This was my first finish job. I used a thin layer of Deft gloss spray-on lacquer, runs about $15 on Amazon.
It's had both rosewood & maple on it...the maple neck worked best with the body.
Alchemist_PhD
Tele-Meister
Thanks for providing those, really nice results, that’s the right amount of blue. I will put a few clear coats over to keep it a more blue than the oxidized greenish hue. I’m nit sure how much today’s clear will yellow anyway.
Dan Erlewine gives a pretty good recipe for LPB including the correct bronzing powder for the metallic in his book on guitar finishing. You'll have to shoot it with a gun.
Jon C
Tele-Meister
Not LPB, but fwiw Gracey’s Burgundy Mist did not match the intended target here… just one data point.
OK. about colors. and chromatic accuracy...
I've discussed this before... here's a dissertation I did a few years back, perhaps it will help in understanding the variants in colors wearing the same name, but looking obviously different..
Paint, colors ’n such
Few realize how difficult it is to match a color on a vintage guitar perfectly… primary reason lies within the word “perfect”.
First, if you are requesting a specific color, sending an illustration over the internet is NOT the way to achieve success. Neither is referring to a specific guitar ..
The transmission technology cannot guarantee that I will see the same shades you are transmitting on the monitor. There is simply way too much chromatic distortion occurring in the electronics and the monitors we use… Also the guitar colors are rarely created to chromatic industry standards… so “Mystic Mist” from something like 1995 may be something completely different from “Mystic Mist” the guys at Sherwin Williams look up.
This has been an ongoing issue in the many industries where color accuracy is paramount. For this reason, Advertisers, Artists, Photographers, etc, etc, rely on the Pantone system. It is basically a calibrated system assigning reference numbers to differing shades of colors, so someone in say, Los Angeles, can make reference to a specific number and have someone in Berlin produce art that is precisely the same color.
I used this system in the mid 60’s as a graphic artist, it’s still the number one system used to insure color accuracy today. Nothing’s changed much. You cannot trust a photograph, be it with Kodachrome, or some digital methodology.
Since we’re “guitars”, such precision is not really necessary, close is usually good enough. But I hope it illustrates why a guitar that may be powder yellow in your hands, may look Butterscotch blond, Pale Green, Light blue, or plain old White.. in a photograph transmitted over the internet, so that the resulting color seen at “my end” could be completely different from what was intended…
That is further compounded by the legacy of colors throughout the history of guitars…
as an example, let’ s consider Sonic Blue… the same can be applied to any of the vintage colors… Sonic Blue was a color used by General Motors in 1956 on the Cadillac. It was used by Fender from 1960 - 1972
Back then any Sonic Blue had to be an exact color match to that found on the Cadillac. Reason, so when ya backed into a telephone pole, the body shop could call Dupont, Ditzler, ICI, PPG, etc, and order a can of something that was an exact match…
However, by, say ,1972…there were relatively few 1956 Caddies on the road… the need to keep cans of Sonic Blue on the shelf was fading… and at some point. the paint manufacturers just discontinued making it. For those cars that were still on the road, if paint work was required, they depended on the local body shops to have a custom batch mixed for the small job…. thus, by the end of the 70’s the name Sonic Blue, as specifying a specific color, simply slid into obscurity…
Jump forward another decade or so… all of a sudden vintage reissue guitars are a hot item… but no one is making Sonic Blue or Fiesta Red, or Seafoam Green to the original specifications, and.. should you find an original guitar, the color has suffered the machinations of time, pollution, sweat, dusty smoky bars, etc… so that none exist today that remain the “pure Sonic Blue” as issued issued five decades ago..… so what do ya do?
Since the name Sonic Blue is no longer “owned”.. the manufacturer can just have something blended that approximates the color, call it Sonic, and start spraying guitars. Further, should they want to make less exotic guitars, they can choose a less costly paint, have it blended and call it Sonic too, even though it’s obviously a subtly different shade when compared to the initial guitars.
Let me interject that even if a manufacturer like Sherwin Williams, or whoever, makes two different types of paint, the same color, say one in Nitro and the other in Acrylic lacquer, or Poly… the will never look exactly, precisely alike.. this is due to how light enters the first few thousandths of an inch of the paint’s surface and is reflected back to your eye. They can get close, but never perfect.
This is why a Sonic Blue finished in Nitro will always look different to one finished in Poly. I t doesn't matter how closely the manufacturer wanted to match the colors.. since they are different “materials” they will look subtly different.
The point being, the guitars may or may not match what was made in the 60’s, but, there is no requirement that they do so, since the original 60’s guitars have all shifted color anyway, there’s no reasonable way to accurately match them.
Today, to get them as close as possible, I use a supplier that blends lacquers for the esoteric automotive restoration industry… real lacquers, and real lacquer clear coats…
Now. . Clear coats…. that introduces another variable….
The reason older guitars have shifted in color is the clear applied is reactive to UV light, as well as other pollutants… they become more and more yellow, or amber, as time shifts.
This is the origin of colors like Butterscotch Blonde. There was never a guitar made in the 50’s or 60’s in the color call Butterscotch Blonde.
For those not familiar with the shade, it would look like coffee with cream spilled on a wooden table… the grain is still “peeking” through.. but the milky coffee/tan color is predominant..
Also the color Amber. It’s like the wood is coated with a clear that has a yellowish color to it.. like you were looking at wood through a glass of Budweiser, or beer of your choice…
However note, the shade of “Butterscotch” can vary greatly.. from very pale, to rather intense. Also the chromatic shift can vary, being more gold, or tan, or brown, orange, greenish… are all “correct”.. the reason.. Fender would source paints from different manufacturers. They shifted color differently as time passed.
While many think Fender only used Dupont coatings, in reality, Leo was constantly looking for finishes that would facilitate manufacturing his guitars, or sourcing paint from whomever had what he needed in stock at the time. Thus many suppliers were sourced.
Dupont, Sherwin Williams, Behlens, Cabots, and a long list of others were all used…. and each would shift chromatically to differing shades… so there is no actual specific shade of Butterscotch blond, or the transparent Amber.
But. regarding that color.. to be applied correctly… it should be applied in several stages. Some simply mix a can of the Butterscotch lacquer and spray. That method will never age correctly.
Look at any 50+ year old Vintage Butterscotch Blonde and you will notice where the top coats are worn, you can see the lighter, almost white color coat beneath… that’s because the now amber clear coat is gone exposing the color coat, white.
That’s how it should be done. Vintage white, then an amber clear… it ages perfectly.
So.. if you require a specific color.. here’s how to guarantee something close, and close is all I can guarantee…
If you see the color on a car… simply research the color code…. that’s easy… visit a automotive body shop supply store. All those guys wanna play like Stevie Ray too, and are usually glad to help… get me the color codes and I’ll have it mixed locally. But remember, they all want to live vicariously through your guitar too. So consider the exotic colors they are going to suggest… be careful, some of those paints can add big bux to the cost of your build.
Also, remember, it will have a clear coat of Nitrocellulose lacquer over it… Nitro is naturally slightly Amber. Think of a glass of Budweiser… it’s clear, but you can see the amber shade… that’s exactly how the Nitro is. As the coats build up,, they tint everything toward amber… so colors like pale blue, Sonic Blue, Daphne Blue will shift toward greenish…which is accurate when compared to an actual ’62 in those colors.. if you’re wondering, look at a color similar to what you want through a glass of the beer…. That will be over kill. but will give you the idea.
If you don’t care for the amber shift, I’ll need to use an acrylic lacquer instead of Nitro. Let me know…
Warm shades, Reds, Browns, Oranges, etc,. will get subtly darker, but virtually unnoticeable…. so if accuracy is an issue with you., ASK… let me share info about chromatic shifts. But remember, stay cool, no one can hear what color your guitar may be.
Another method is to visit any large paint department, Home Depot, Lowe’s, or some of the larger Hardware stores… They all have thousands of color swatches. Find the color you like.. and on the way out pick up a can of clear lacquer, actually a can of plain old varnish, or amber Shellac is better. Ya want something a little yellowish.. think of the beer again…
Give the swatch a couple of coats, this simulates what the Nitro Clear coat will do visually… now you have a very good idea what things will look like on NGD..
Hope this helps… but remember, I’m not refinishing your guitar because you guessed wrong… do your homework.
Ron
I've discussed this before... here's a dissertation I did a few years back, perhaps it will help in understanding the variants in colors wearing the same name, but looking obviously different..
Paint, colors ’n such
Few realize how difficult it is to match a color on a vintage guitar perfectly… primary reason lies within the word “perfect”.
First, if you are requesting a specific color, sending an illustration over the internet is NOT the way to achieve success. Neither is referring to a specific guitar ..
The transmission technology cannot guarantee that I will see the same shades you are transmitting on the monitor. There is simply way too much chromatic distortion occurring in the electronics and the monitors we use… Also the guitar colors are rarely created to chromatic industry standards… so “Mystic Mist” from something like 1995 may be something completely different from “Mystic Mist” the guys at Sherwin Williams look up.
This has been an ongoing issue in the many industries where color accuracy is paramount. For this reason, Advertisers, Artists, Photographers, etc, etc, rely on the Pantone system. It is basically a calibrated system assigning reference numbers to differing shades of colors, so someone in say, Los Angeles, can make reference to a specific number and have someone in Berlin produce art that is precisely the same color.
I used this system in the mid 60’s as a graphic artist, it’s still the number one system used to insure color accuracy today. Nothing’s changed much. You cannot trust a photograph, be it with Kodachrome, or some digital methodology.
Since we’re “guitars”, such precision is not really necessary, close is usually good enough. But I hope it illustrates why a guitar that may be powder yellow in your hands, may look Butterscotch blond, Pale Green, Light blue, or plain old White.. in a photograph transmitted over the internet, so that the resulting color seen at “my end” could be completely different from what was intended…
That is further compounded by the legacy of colors throughout the history of guitars…
as an example, let’ s consider Sonic Blue… the same can be applied to any of the vintage colors… Sonic Blue was a color used by General Motors in 1956 on the Cadillac. It was used by Fender from 1960 - 1972
Back then any Sonic Blue had to be an exact color match to that found on the Cadillac. Reason, so when ya backed into a telephone pole, the body shop could call Dupont, Ditzler, ICI, PPG, etc, and order a can of something that was an exact match…
However, by, say ,1972…there were relatively few 1956 Caddies on the road… the need to keep cans of Sonic Blue on the shelf was fading… and at some point. the paint manufacturers just discontinued making it. For those cars that were still on the road, if paint work was required, they depended on the local body shops to have a custom batch mixed for the small job…. thus, by the end of the 70’s the name Sonic Blue, as specifying a specific color, simply slid into obscurity…
Jump forward another decade or so… all of a sudden vintage reissue guitars are a hot item… but no one is making Sonic Blue or Fiesta Red, or Seafoam Green to the original specifications, and.. should you find an original guitar, the color has suffered the machinations of time, pollution, sweat, dusty smoky bars, etc… so that none exist today that remain the “pure Sonic Blue” as issued issued five decades ago..… so what do ya do?
Since the name Sonic Blue is no longer “owned”.. the manufacturer can just have something blended that approximates the color, call it Sonic, and start spraying guitars. Further, should they want to make less exotic guitars, they can choose a less costly paint, have it blended and call it Sonic too, even though it’s obviously a subtly different shade when compared to the initial guitars.
Let me interject that even if a manufacturer like Sherwin Williams, or whoever, makes two different types of paint, the same color, say one in Nitro and the other in Acrylic lacquer, or Poly… the will never look exactly, precisely alike.. this is due to how light enters the first few thousandths of an inch of the paint’s surface and is reflected back to your eye. They can get close, but never perfect.
This is why a Sonic Blue finished in Nitro will always look different to one finished in Poly. I t doesn't matter how closely the manufacturer wanted to match the colors.. since they are different “materials” they will look subtly different.
The point being, the guitars may or may not match what was made in the 60’s, but, there is no requirement that they do so, since the original 60’s guitars have all shifted color anyway, there’s no reasonable way to accurately match them.
Today, to get them as close as possible, I use a supplier that blends lacquers for the esoteric automotive restoration industry… real lacquers, and real lacquer clear coats…
Now. . Clear coats…. that introduces another variable….
The reason older guitars have shifted in color is the clear applied is reactive to UV light, as well as other pollutants… they become more and more yellow, or amber, as time shifts.
This is the origin of colors like Butterscotch Blonde. There was never a guitar made in the 50’s or 60’s in the color call Butterscotch Blonde.
For those not familiar with the shade, it would look like coffee with cream spilled on a wooden table… the grain is still “peeking” through.. but the milky coffee/tan color is predominant..
Also the color Amber. It’s like the wood is coated with a clear that has a yellowish color to it.. like you were looking at wood through a glass of Budweiser, or beer of your choice…
However note, the shade of “Butterscotch” can vary greatly.. from very pale, to rather intense. Also the chromatic shift can vary, being more gold, or tan, or brown, orange, greenish… are all “correct”.. the reason.. Fender would source paints from different manufacturers. They shifted color differently as time passed.
While many think Fender only used Dupont coatings, in reality, Leo was constantly looking for finishes that would facilitate manufacturing his guitars, or sourcing paint from whomever had what he needed in stock at the time. Thus many suppliers were sourced.
Dupont, Sherwin Williams, Behlens, Cabots, and a long list of others were all used…. and each would shift chromatically to differing shades… so there is no actual specific shade of Butterscotch blond, or the transparent Amber.
But. regarding that color.. to be applied correctly… it should be applied in several stages. Some simply mix a can of the Butterscotch lacquer and spray. That method will never age correctly.
Look at any 50+ year old Vintage Butterscotch Blonde and you will notice where the top coats are worn, you can see the lighter, almost white color coat beneath… that’s because the now amber clear coat is gone exposing the color coat, white.
That’s how it should be done. Vintage white, then an amber clear… it ages perfectly.
So.. if you require a specific color.. here’s how to guarantee something close, and close is all I can guarantee…
If you see the color on a car… simply research the color code…. that’s easy… visit a automotive body shop supply store. All those guys wanna play like Stevie Ray too, and are usually glad to help… get me the color codes and I’ll have it mixed locally. But remember, they all want to live vicariously through your guitar too. So consider the exotic colors they are going to suggest… be careful, some of those paints can add big bux to the cost of your build.
Also, remember, it will have a clear coat of Nitrocellulose lacquer over it… Nitro is naturally slightly Amber. Think of a glass of Budweiser… it’s clear, but you can see the amber shade… that’s exactly how the Nitro is. As the coats build up,, they tint everything toward amber… so colors like pale blue, Sonic Blue, Daphne Blue will shift toward greenish…which is accurate when compared to an actual ’62 in those colors.. if you’re wondering, look at a color similar to what you want through a glass of the beer…. That will be over kill. but will give you the idea.
If you don’t care for the amber shift, I’ll need to use an acrylic lacquer instead of Nitro. Let me know…
Warm shades, Reds, Browns, Oranges, etc,. will get subtly darker, but virtually unnoticeable…. so if accuracy is an issue with you., ASK… let me share info about chromatic shifts. But remember, stay cool, no one can hear what color your guitar may be.
Another method is to visit any large paint department, Home Depot, Lowe’s, or some of the larger Hardware stores… They all have thousands of color swatches. Find the color you like.. and on the way out pick up a can of clear lacquer, actually a can of plain old varnish, or amber Shellac is better. Ya want something a little yellowish.. think of the beer again…
Give the swatch a couple of coats, this simulates what the Nitro Clear coat will do visually… now you have a very good idea what things will look like on NGD..
Hope this helps… but remember, I’m not refinishing your guitar because you guessed wrong… do your homework.
Ron
Alchemist_PhD
Tele-Meister
Always a pleasure getting the history lesson Ron. You ever thought about putting together some of this in written form or holding an online class?
I actually contacted you a few months ago about building that Tele from a Redwood slab. I found a nice slab of Redwood for the build, but the wife wanted “needed” a new DSLR, so we know who one that discussion. So while the Redwood is on the back burner, I’m going to refinish another in LBP. Any recommendations for spraying LPB? I’ve read it’s better to have the body flat and spray downward instead to hanging and spraying horizontally. Something about the way the flake lays?? Of course this could be internet jargon and of no real validity.
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I guess you'll just be scurrying out 'n pickin' up a D6 for the little lady... I wonder if they have a Coco Chanel designer version...
Lake Placid blue... just keep in mind.. today there is NO uniform standard for the color... it can range from a blue, to a green.. it all has to do with the amount of UV it has been exposed to.. sop you can just go to an automoruve finishing supply and look through the swatches untill you find something that looks about right, and it will be..
Now... Leo, for LPB, used an acrylic lacquer color coat, and nitro clear.. The Dupli-Color automotive retouch pants are a Sherwin Williams Acrylic lacquer.. and many of the big box DIY stores carry Deft, Cabots and/or other Nitro Clears... I would suggest putting down a coat of Zinsser's sealer..
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Zinsser...raditional-Finish-and-Sealer-00304H/100203332
let it dry thoroughly and sand with 220...
this makes a great filler/primer ..
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0029818PM/?tag=tdpri-20.
it sands really easily and fills most small foibles... let it dry a few hours to gas out thoroughly
then apply your color coat.... be sure to apply it to a test piece too... then once it feels dry... give the test a good wet coat and let it sit for about 30 min.. if it is still compatible, it will be .... start applying the clear to the body... after about 3 good full coats let it dry a day, give it a light sanding with something like 280 - 320 grit... then about another 3 - 4 coats.. Now... let it dry a month.. then wet sand with 800.. then 1200 .. and polish...
done.. and that application will be very close to the way Leo did it..excluding the FullerPlast, which you don't wanna screw with anyway... that stuff's so nasty I've seen rats and cockroaches scurrying away holding their noses flippin' the bird at me..
Addendum...
If you have no experience spraying metallics... get a few cans of whatever is cheep and on sale and practice first... once done.. do it again....
Remember.. before you begin applying the color coats you want the body as smooth as you can stand... anything you have not corrected will become apparent in the reflected sheen off the body as thew finish continues to shrink over the months.. so Grain pattern, dings, bullet holes... all should be completely undetectable in the primer you apply.. and remember the primer will shrink over the next few days so you want to hold off block sanding that as long as possible... Patience = quality...
If you rush it and get it finished in say 3 weeks.. You're gonna be totally ticked off in 3 months. Leo let them dry/cure for one month before they started wet sanding and polishing... and you will be using for the most part, the same paints/lacquers ..
r
If you rush it and get it finished in say 3 weeks.. You're gonna be totally ticked off in 3 months. Leo let them dry/cure for one month before they started wet sanding and polishing... and you will be using for the most part, the same paints/lacquers ..
r
Alchemist_PhD
Tele-Meister
Thanks for the info Ron. Not a 6D, a 90D higher resolution and she wanted the cinematography package.I guess you'll just be scurrying out 'n pickin' up a D6 for the little lady... I wonder if they have a Coco Chanel designer version...
Lake Placid blue... just keep in mind.. today there is NO uniform standard for the color... it can range from a blue, to a green.. it all has to do with the amount of UV it has been exposed to.. sop you can just go to an automoruve finishing supply and look through the swatches untill you find something that looks about right, and it will be..
Now... Leo, for LPB, used an acrylic lacquer color coat, and nitro clear.. The Dupli-Color automotive retouch pants are a Sherwin Williams Acrylic lacquer.. and many of the big box DIY stores carry Deft, Cabots and/or other Nitro Clears... I would suggest putting down a coat of Zinsser's sealer..
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Zinsser...raditional-Finish-and-Sealer-00304H/100203332
let it dry thoroughly and sand with 220...
this makes a great filler/primer ..
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0029818PM/?tag=tdpri-20.
it sands really easily and fills most small foibles... let it dry a few hours to gas out thoroughly
then apply your color coat.... be sure to apply it to a test piece too... then once it feels dry... give the test a good wet coat and let it sit for about 30 min.. if it is still compatible, it will be .... start applying the clear to the body... after about 3 good full coats let it dry a day, give it a light sanding with something like 280 - 320 grit... then about another 3 - 4 coats.. Now... let it dry a month.. then wet sand with 800.. then 1200 .. and polish...
done.. and that application will be very close to the way Leo did it..excluding the FullerPlast, which you don't wanna screw with anyway... that stuff's so nasty I've seen rats and cockroaches scurrying away holding their noses flippin' the bird at me..
Addendum...
If you have no experience spraying metallics... get a few cans of whatever is cheep and on sale and practice first... once done.. do it again....
Just watch what ya pay.. I has been archived.. meaning discontinued... I use the Df .. I'm old school.... I wish someone would make a digital back for the Nikon F or the the F4 .... I still have several of those adorning a shelf in a display case...
r
r
Alchemist_PhD
Tele-Meister
I have my moms AE-1 and a few lenses, which some actually came from Sears. I look at the 6000+ photos I have in my phone from just a point and click and I wonder how she managed to get so many great shots of me growing up.
when I used to teach.. I would share, the way a pro gets that decisive moment photo is, they shoot a few thousand, and the editor chooses and crops to make it work...
r
r
Alchemist_PhD
Tele-Meister
24 clicks and reload, unless you walk around like Jim Marshall.
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that's what I used to look like while covering the Jacksonville Open, which became the Players... Plus my assistant was hauling around a "mini-Cam, which back then wasn't all that "mini" .. this is my lard azz with an RCA TK 76 about ca: 1974 .. actually I believe this was at the First Player's Championship... they didn't have the premier course they play on today, that was played on one of the Sawgrass courses..
Alchemist_PhD
Tele-Meister
Back when men where men, no camera harness stabilizers, no laser guided ball flight trackers. Also the golf was a bit more challenging, no multi-piece balls, club heads were the size of a matchbook!
Sea Devil
Friend of Leo's
As Ron said, the ReRanch LPB is nitro rather than acrylic. I finished a Strat in ReRanch LPB with no clear (circa 2008?), and it self-leveled very nicely. It's been years now, and the color hasn't shifted significantly. I never sanded it, just lightly hand-buffed. My undercoats were flat as can be, and the dings it's acquired over the years speak to the wisdom of doing it the old-school way: body dyed yellow, then vinyl sealer, then white primer, then color. You can see the layers clearly where it's gotten whacked, and it just looks "right."
None of what I have to say about RR matters if they aren't currently shipping, of course.
None of what I have to say about RR matters if they aren't currently shipping, of course.
