Arghhhhhhhhh! Modal content

[DekeDog]

Keep in mind the note(s) in the mode that makes it work in that melody and gives it the tonal quality you want. It's not scales or modes you want, necessarily, it's the quality of notes within the harmony... what it does to make the sound interesting and aesthetically pleasing or gives it the dissonance you seek.

 

[SRHmusic]

Make sure you understand how to harmonize the major scale first.
- That means, pick a key (e.g. C), and make the chords that start on each note of the scale using every other note (or stacked thirds).
- For example, in C: C major 7 = C E G B, Dm7 = D F A C, etc., ..., F major 7 = F A C E, G7 = G B D F, etc.
- Note that the V chord ("the five chord") is a dominant 7th (G is the V of C (C D E F G)).
- Note: This works in ALL keys, not just C. The list of chords is the same (I ii iii IV V vi vii-dim).
- It's really good to understand this first, as (I think) it's important for understanding modes, and will help you understand chord progressions and songs, too.

Then, a practical way to approach modes is to realize they just fall out of the major scale and are used to describe which chord tonality you call "home" for a song or a section of music. My way of thinking these days is:
1) Identify the "parent" major scale, and consider it to provide the "palette" of notes to use. (You can identify the parent scale from the chords in the progression - match them up to the list of chords from harmonizing the major scale.)
2) Pay attention to the underlying chords, and emphasize chord tones (which ever 1 3 5 7's are in the chords - some may be flat or sharp depending on the chord).
Note: Don't bother thinking in the moment about "I need to play Dorian on the ii chord then Mixolydian on the V chord, etc." It's unnecessary. If you're using notes from the parent scale and emphasizing chord tones, somewhat modal playing happens naturally, and you're basically doing the same thing.

An example that you'll probably get without too much trouble is with the chord changes for Santana's Evil Ways.
- The main vamp in the song is Gm7 to C7.
- C7 is the V chord of F major, and Gm7 is the ii (two) chord of F major.
- So solos or melodies using the notes from the F major scale will work well.

Play and record a vamp of Gm7 for a bar then C7 for a bar (barre chords at the 3rd fret work well).
Play the G minor pentatonic scale for a while at the 3rd fret (the usual pattern everyone learns first).
Then every so often, and esp. when the C7 chord happens, play the E note on the 2nd string 5th fret. This is a note in the C7 chord, but not in the pentatonic scale. (It's also not in the usual G minor, which would have Eb instead of E.)
This note is a major 6th relative to G (or Gm7), and gives (or even defines) the sound of the Dorian mode.
(The Dorian mode is the mode that happens when you call the ii chord home.)

Then you can experiment with playing melodies from the full F major scale, but in the 2nd position, at the 3rd fret.

I hope that helps. Keep at trying to understand this stuff in your own way, as it pays off.

Edit - I agree with others that it is important to really master the modes to know which notes are different from the major scale, like the major 6th in Dorian (or a natural minor but using the major 6th), or the b7 in Mixolydian (or major/ionian but using the b7), and to similarly be able to play the scale for the mode. But I'll also note that these tones also come straight from the chords that are related to the modes. Mixolydian at the 5th degree goes with the V7 chord with it's b7, etc. All these ways of thinking and all these aspects are all related and they all work together, so it's a matter of finding what works for you, and what works when digging into the theory may be different than when you want to play more 'in the moment.' Cheers.

 

[Wrighty]

OK, how’s this. I’m playing across two octaves of a Bb Major scale. Over a C Major chord I’m using the notes C to C. Am I playing a toon in the key of C, which could, eventually, become a 1 4 5, C F G three chord trick?

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

OK, how’s this. I’m playing across two octaves of a Bb Major scale. Over a C Major chord I’m using the notes C to C. Am I playing a toon in the key of C, which could, eventually, become a 1 4 5, C F G three chord trick?

Don't hold me to this (not a pro), but I doubt I'd use a Bb scale for a C-F-G progression. I'd use either use C's major, major pentatonic, or minor pentatonic scale. (And maybe mix them together, depending on the song.)

In other words, I'd ask which 1-4-5 progression the chords you're using fit.

So for the C-Bb (1-7b) progression you're describing (like that "Cold Rain and Snow" example I mentioned above), I'd likely use an F scale because F-Bb-C is the 1-4-5 progression for F.

You might be on to something, though. I'll go try your Bb scale on a 1-4-5 progression in C and find out what it sounds like.

I'll be back. . . .

I'm back. Tried it. Discordant. Couldn't make it work.

As SRHmusic just said above, it's good to find the "chord tonality you call 'home' for a song or a section." As you can see, that's what I did.

Here's that example I mentioned. Like your Bb-C combination, the chords are D and E. So the scale Jerry is using is (mostly!) A major:



In this context, the A scale has that laid-back signature Dead feel that folks either love or hate.

But no one is chained to that scale. Another song with the same 1-7b root is Dylan's "Wicked Messinger." It hammers out the 1-chord's minor pentatonic for a more diabolical attitude:

 

[BigDaddyLH]

I think Paul's solo (@1:19) here is a good example of whipping out a mode. Desmond is playing lyrically and you can hear how it stands out from the head -- the beginning and ending of the tune. (The head is Dorian and the solo is something else -- Phrygian Dominant?)

And I like it more than Take Five!

 

[Wrighty]

Don't hold me to this (not a pro), but I doubt I'd use a Bb scale for a C-F-G progression. I'd use either use C's major, major pentatonic, or minor pentatonic scale. (And maybe mix them together, depending on the song.)

If it were a C-Bb (1-7b) progression (that "Cold Rain and Snow" example I mentioned above), I'd likely use an F scale because F-Bb-C is a 1-4-5 progression in F.

You might be on to something, though. I'll go try your Bb scale on a 1-4-5 progression in C and find out what it sounds like.

I'll be back. . . .

I'm back. Tried it. Discordant. Couldn't make it work. Maybe a jazz player would have better luck.

Oh dear, back to the studying, though I made it sound reasonable, possibly by missing out the ‘duff’ notes……………………..and leaving a pentatonic!?

 

[Sparky2]

Couple of weeks ago my teacher started to take me towards modes. Seemed straightforward, still does, until I get home and start trying to work stuff out. I get the intervals, notes in a key, 7ths and stuff, but how the hell does it all fit together? There must be a simple starting point. This’ll sound naive to a lot of you but, as an example. If I play G to G in a C Major scale, am I playing the 5th mode of C (because my ‘root’ note is the fifth note in the scale of C major), and would I play the notes over a C chord? I’m getting really screwed up about this and it’s beginning to detract from my playing enjoyment.

Wrighty,

I feel you.
I have been invited to join a local group that gets together once a week to practice barbershop quartet songs.

Several times a year they will have volunteer group members show up for this or that performance (events in the park, old folks homes, etc etc) and sing really great barbershop quartet songs.

I have a good voice for Lead and/or Tenor, and my harmonies are good and instinctive. But I am dismayed to learn that the group leaders really need you to know how to read sheet music.

I'm a self-taught musician, and am very comfortable playing and singing a variety of styles and genres of music.
I have written and recorded a lot of songs over the years.
And I can adapt and learn most songs really quickly. I have a good ear.

But I'm wondering (at age 63 no less) if learning proper notes, modes, scales, treble clef, quarter notes, Every Good Boy Does Fine, whole notes, and really reading sheet music is in my future.

I have a lot of soul-searching to do here, I guess that's what I'm saying.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Oh dear, back to the studying, though I made it sound reasonable, possibly by missing out the ‘duff’ notes……………………..and leaving a pentatonic!?

I added some examples and some better explanations to post 24. So go back up to it. They might help.

One of best pieces of music advice I've ever heard is Ellington's: If it sounds good, it is good.

It's all about context. So if you like how what you're doing sounds, you're on a good track!

 

[Wrighty]

Wrighty,

I feel you.
I have been invited to join a local group that gets together once a week to practice barbershop quartet songs.

Several times a year they will have volunteer group members show up for this or that performance (events in the park, old folks homes, etc etc) and sing really great barbershop quartet songs.

I have a good voice for Lead and/or Tenor, and my harmonies are good and instinctive. But I am dismayed to learn that the group leaders really need you to know how to read sheet music.

I'm a self-taught musician, and am very comfortable playing and singing a variety of styles and genres of music.
I have written and recorded a lot of songs over the years.
And I can adapt and learn most songs really quickly. I have a good ear.

But I'm wondering (at age 63 no less) if learning proper notes, modes, scales, treble clef, quarter notes, Every Good Boy Does Fine, whole notes, and really reading sheet music is in my future.

I have a lot of soul-searching to do here, I guess that's what I'm saying.

Well, I’ve got a couple or three hours on you my friend and all I can say is……………..it don’t come easy, for me at least. Just gotta accept that the old grey matter takes longer than it used to to absorb stuff………………….good luck

 

[SRHmusic]

OK, how’s this. I’m playing across two octaves of a Bb Major scale. Over a C Major chord I’m using the notes C to C. Am I playing a toon in the key of C, which could, eventually, become a 1 4 5, C F G three chord trick?

I might want more context. A few thoughts, tho. (And I'm not a theory expert at all, just sharing practical approaches I've settled on and compared notes on with others. There are far more theory and approaches out there to explore. )

For a chord not quite in the key, there may be just one note different. Bb Major has C minor as the ii chord, from the Eb note (not the E in C Maj). Over the C Maj chord, then, you can emphasize the chord tones of C Maj (C G E) and fill in or connect those with the rest of Bb Major notes. You're still playing in the key of the song, but emphasizing the unique part of the odd chord when it occurs.

If you follow this method on jazz tunes where some folks suggest switching to different less usual scales or modes (altered dominant, etc) on every chord it works well, and you actually end up playing the same suggested scales without having to remember them by name... Another case of the theory coming later and being more complex than it needs to be in the moment. (A teacher of mine agreed jazz players often play this way.)

For a tune with C, F, and G chords, a Bb chord will sound like a bVII chord. (This move is commonly done in rock songs.) F Major scale can work here, too, but when it comes around to G be a little careful with the Bb note, but it can sound bluesy as well (the b3 of G). You can try playing the Bb scale with this progression... but see how it sounds and maybe adjust her and there.

Use your ears. Experiment! Figure out which tones you're finding to work over which chords and see if you can justify it. Discuss with your teacher, too.

 

[Wrighty]

Gee guys, all such useful stuff. Knowing that there is just sooooo much to learn, or experience and use, makes it less rather than more daunting! One step at a time and remember it’s what it sounds like, not what it looks like on paper! Thanks again all

 

[SRHmusic]

If I play G to G in a C Major scale, am I playing the 5th mode of C (because my ‘root’ note is the fifth note in the scale of C major), and would I play the notes over a C chord?

Going back to one of your first questions. I can't tell if your example here asks about either A) playing just the note "G" to the note "C" or, B) you're playing a G7 chord and it's chord tones over the G7 then going to a strong C chord tone to the C major when the song does. So, for either, in my mind -
A) is not really anything modal. There's not a lot of "information" in just two notes. And,
B) is closer to implying some "modality." But it's not much different than just playing chord tones and scale tones over each chord.

Since both G7 and C Major are chords in the C Major Scale. (G B D F and C E G) to my ear it's not much of a "stretch" away from the sounds that are in the base major scale to begin with. Yes, if you are hanging out on G7 tones for a while, and especially the F (b7 of G), then you'll hear the dominant 7 and Mixolydian sound there. So, sure, that's playing the Mixolydian mode. But it's also just playing the chord and scale tones. Same thing, in this case.

In my opinion, strong "modal" things happen when the chord progression itself is in a different place than the usual Major or natural minor scales and chords we hear all the time. One example above is Santana's Evil Ways, and also Oye Como Va, which are strongly Dorian: the "home" chord is iim or iim7 (Gm7) and we dwell on Gm7 to C7 (iim7 to V7), and hit the major 6 tone of Gm7, the E tone in the C7, that really defines a Dorian sound.

Another example is The Beatles' She Said. This has a very strong Mixolydian thing going on. The "home" chord is Bb7, and it hits the Ab note in important places, which is the b7 of Bb. That's a defining sound of Mixolydian. Here's a snippet of something like that, (hopefully not enough to trigger any copyright worries). That red note there is the b7 of our "home" chord Bb. Play around with the melody and guitar lines in this one for a while. A sort of defining Beatles riff uses the 3rd, 4th, 1st, b7th, and 5th of a dom.7 chord - esp. going back and forth between the 3rd and 4th before going to the 5th or elsewhere. You'll start feeling psychedelic before you know it.

​

Oh, and the Bb7, Ab and Eb can be thought of as from Eb Major (the key signature in this example). Eb Major and Bb Mixolydian have the same notes. But here "home" is Bb7. Cheers

 

[kbold]

But I'll also note that these tones also come straight from the chords that are related to the modes.

.... or, to rephrase this (to suit how my brain works):
"A mode is related to the chord being played".

Any major scale has a chord structure I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viiø
... so any chord deviating from this infers a modal change (related to the chord).
(Any note deviating from the key signature infers a mode change.) There is a temporary shift of the tonal centre.

To simplify, the notes of the chord being played are a good foundation for improvisation.
Those chord notes deviating from the key signature will typically be the most expressive ones.

 

[Telenator]

OK, let's try a different approach.
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C Let's play this wherever you want to start, C to C.

Play this C major/ionian scale over a C major chord.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, play D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D over a D minor chord
________________________________________________
Next, play E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E over an E minor chord
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Now play F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F over an F maj7 chord.

Figure out the rest.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

C=1, D=2, E=3, F=4, G=5, A=6, B=7

1=major, 2=minor, 3=minor, 4=major7, 5=dom7, 6=minor, 7=minor 7b5

So, play these chords in succession. C chord, D minor, E minor, F, G7, A minor, B minor 7b5, C It's a chord scale.
Play it. You'll hear it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't try to grasp this in one big chunk, all at once. It's overwhelming.
Just play the C major scale from C to C, D to D, E to E and so on. Listen to what happens.

Then play the C major scale to the C chord, the D minor chord, the E minor chord, and so on. Don't play any riffs. Just the scale.
Listen to what it sounds like. This will all become insanely clear and open up the coolest new world of music for you.

If you are currently using the pentatonic minor scale when soloing over a major chord, stop doing it now, until you understand what it means to approach music from the stand point of C major as the center of it all. Otherwise, you run the risk of forever being confused about it.

 

[SRHmusic]

.... or, to rephrase this (to suit how my brain works):
"A mode is related to the chord being played".

Any major scale has a chord structure I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, viiø
... so any chord deviating from this infers a modal change (related to the chord).
(Any note deviating from the key signature infers a mode change.) There is a temporary shift of the tonal centre.

To simplify, the notes of the chord being played are a good foundation for improvisation.
Those chord notes deviating from the key signature will typically be the most expressive ones.

Yeah, a few different approaches show up that I'm aware of. Probably even more out there.
For a song like She Said, it's firmly in the key of Eb, but centered on the V chord Bb7, so it sounds Mixolydian. I think we're so used to hearing songs in a Major or natural minor key that this really sounds different to dwell in the V7 chord / Mixolydian.

Or, in any song, a song writer can choose to throw in an out-of-key chord (like a bIII major chord or even the usual Vdom7 in a minor key), and it can imply some other mode.

Or, a player can choose to play from a specific modal scale over some chord(s) to give a different modal sound than you might expect (like a Lydian (#4) over a I chord, etc.).

Big topic - same ingredients mixed up different ways. It's cool to have a collection of examples to hear.