Couple of weeks ago my teacher started to take me towards modes. Seemed straightforward, still does, until I get home and start trying to work stuff out. I get the intervals, notes in a key, 7ths and stuff, but how the hell does it all fit together? There must be a simple starting point. This’ll sound naive to a lot of you but, as an example. If I play G to G in a C Major scale, am I playing the 5th mode of C (because my ‘root’ note is the fifth note in the scale of C major), and would I play the notes over a C chord? I’m getting really screwed up about this and it’s beginning to detract from my playing enjoyment.
Arghhhhhhhhh! Modal content
- Thread starter Wrighty
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Charlie Bernstein
Doctor of Teleocity
I don't dive deeply into modes, but they are a handy way of thinking about improvising melodies. It's good you're dipping your toes in.
One thing you might do just for starters is think about what scales fit the chords in a song.
An easy starting point is Grateful Dead's version of "Cold Rain and Snow." Two chords: E and D. If a song is in E and the most important other chord is D, the major scale that the notes of both chords show up in is A. (Not coincidentally, A, D, and E are the good old I-IV-V combination, right?)
That means you can safely riff on that A scale, even though the song is in E. In fact, the E major scale would sound awful when you're riffing over the D chord. And a D major scale wouldn't sound great anywhere.
I don't know what to call that mode. Maybe I'll go look it up later — and forget the answer two days later. But you don't have name modes to use them fluently. You just have to know that different scales are good for different situations and poke around the fretboard to find 'em.
There are also plenty of non-modal scales. The major and minor pentatonics are the ones most blues players think of first. You can even invent your own scales. I have scales I only use in a single song.
So it's great you're taking the modal plunge. I know players who never try — and wonder why there are so many simple songs they can't solo over. Just keep it real by grounding what you're learning in practical use.
Like they used to say in the Mickey Mouse Club: Making music is fun!
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make a loop C Bb F and play Mixolydian you'll hear immediately how the flatted 7th works.
While thinking "G to G in a C Major scale" can be helpful when learning modes in theory, it is not very practical in terms of playing.
You really need to understand the modes from their root notes.
What you are describing is a G Mixolydian scale, which is usually played over a G7 chord. The root note is G. The scale is GABCDEF. Written as intervals its 123456b7 (Major scale with a flat 7), and that is very important to learn as you can now play the Mixolydian scale in any key. Same thing with any other mode.
So really, forget about the C Major scale and learn the modes "by numbers". If you are playing a song and an F7 chord comes up, you don't need to think "Bb Major scale from F" but simply 123456b7 from the root note F, or "F Major with a flat 7".
1. My advice is forget about the "mode" aspect and just think of them as scales. It is literally a pet peeve of mine when people go into a long modal explanation online that ultimately amounts to something like, "play the C major scale over those chords".
2. The way to really hear them is play all the modes from the same root note. Play the low E on your guitar and let it ring, then play the E Dorian over it a bit. Then when you are ready, play the low E string and play the E Phrygian a bit. Keep going thru all the modes starting on E.
2. The way to really hear them is play all the modes from the same root note. Play the low E on your guitar and let it ring, then play the E Dorian over it a bit. Then when you are ready, play the low E string and play the E Phrygian a bit. Keep going thru all the modes starting on E.
trapdoor2
Friend of Leo's
I find Rand Scullard's "interactive circle of fifths" to be helpful.
https://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/
This allows you to play around with scales & modes and see how the chords interact. Just another tool in the kit.
https://randscullard.com/CircleOfFifths/
This allows you to play around with scales & modes and see how the chords interact. Just another tool in the kit.
bottlenecker
Poster Extraordinaire
Sure you can play it over a C chord, but what makes it the mixolydian mode is that you are playing those notes in the key of G. G is the tonal center. If you play them in the key of C, you're using C major no matter what note you start on.
One value of understanding modes is that you can connect the fretboard. If you learn to play an A minor scale, a C major scale, a D dorian scale, and an E phrygian scale, you can use those positions and shapes as C major, A minor, D dorian, E phrygian, or G mixolydian, just for example, depending on the context.
The other benefit of understanding modes is just gaining knowledge of tonalities beyond major and minor.
Charlie Bernstein
Doctor of Teleocity
All good tips above. Don't forget about modes, but use them in the context of actual songs. Theory only helps your playing when it's grounded in real music.
And that's where it will start fitting together. That's where the big insights happen. Otherwise, it's just confusing and discouraging.
And that's where it will start fitting together. That's where the big insights happen. Otherwise, it's just confusing and discouraging.
Yes, absolutely. This was my introductory exercise to modes too, helps you internalize what Howard Roberts would call the "character" of the mode.
I can remember going through a scale and playing the modes using scale degrees in C Major, and it got me where OP started this thread - trying to play G Mixolydian over a C chord and not understanding why it still sounded like Ob-La-Di.
At the end of the day the sound comes before the theory. @Mjark and @Charlie Bernstein nailed it - set up a modal chord vamp like the suggested C / Bb / F and play C mixolydian (same notes as Fmaj) over the top, internalize the sound. Then, if you like, set up a new vamp of C / Bdim / F and play C mixolydian again. It will sound terrible and you will better understand what notes are important to not play.
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41144
Friend of Leo's
1st - the music you play can be very relevant to this .... especially if you're into 'jazzy' stuff ...
You got to remember to look at the Circle of Fifths too.
ie (and for eg) If you're in the key of C ... you're in the key of C, so don't confuse yourself by thinking in terms of needing to play the G Major scale going from G to G
From C Major (Ionian mode) ... G is the 5th which is, therefore, C Lydian.
The real point of modes is that sometimes, regardless of the key you are in ... playing a different mode of that key - just sounds better.
If you've ever played some Blues stuff ... I can imagine you'll have done this countless times without thinking about it eg
... say a Blues tune is in the key of C Major (C Ionian mode) you'll quite probably have ended up playing C Aeolian mode ... C minor scale or rather pents.... (rather than the relative 6th minor scale) as it simply sounds better.
BUT the notes in C Aeolian are exactly the same as Eb Major ... but I doubt very much that you ever thought you were playing Eb Major or thought that you needed to play from Eb to Eb?
Another eg .... if you're in C Major ... but use a dominant 7th or 9th ... the C Mixolydian will sound better than C Ionian.
But - again - think in terms of C Mixolydian not playing F to F as in an F Major scale.
It is mind-bending though
You got to remember to look at the Circle of Fifths too.
ie (and for eg) If you're in the key of C ... you're in the key of C, so don't confuse yourself by thinking in terms of needing to play the G Major scale going from G to G
From C Major (Ionian mode) ... G is the 5th which is, therefore, C Lydian.
The real point of modes is that sometimes, regardless of the key you are in ... playing a different mode of that key - just sounds better.
If you've ever played some Blues stuff ... I can imagine you'll have done this countless times without thinking about it eg
... say a Blues tune is in the key of C Major (C Ionian mode) you'll quite probably have ended up playing C Aeolian mode ... C minor scale or rather pents.... (rather than the relative 6th minor scale) as it simply sounds better.
BUT the notes in C Aeolian are exactly the same as Eb Major ... but I doubt very much that you ever thought you were playing Eb Major or thought that you needed to play from Eb to Eb?
Another eg .... if you're in C Major ... but use a dominant 7th or 9th ... the C Mixolydian will sound better than C Ionian.
But - again - think in terms of C Mixolydian not playing F to F as in an F Major scale.
It is mind-bending though
Here's a tune with a guitarist:
String Tree
Doctor of Teleocity
The whole point is to take you OUT of your Comfort Zone.
Modes, by Nature, sound a bit 'off'.
For myself, when improvising, I like to go from Melodic - Mode - then back to melodic.
Gives me a chance to Knock on the Gates of Hell and, come away wearing a Halo. So to speak.
Next time you play a G Chord, try playing around with a C Pentatonic.
Some of those notes fit together pretty well. as for the others, use them as passing Notes to get back to where you feel comfortable.
Cheers
Nogoodnamesleft
Tele-Afflicted
Modes are really fun to get into with diatonic instruments. Actually, that's how I really was able to see how they fit.
Charlie Bernstein
Doctor of Teleocity
Another thought: Keep in mind that modes are frameworks to build around and from. The notes that aren't in the scale you're using can still sound good. Big modal players like Miles Davis and Jerry Garcia hit lots of in-between notes, too. That's what made their styles so captivating to their fans.
Charlie Bernstein
Doctor of Teleocity
Right, Wrighty. Your teacher is trying you expand what you know.
Yes, they can. They can also sound right on the money, sweet, persuasive, in the groove, in the moment. It depends on what you're doing with what and the feeling you're trying to create.
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String Tree
Doctor of Teleocity
Takes a bit of Practice and Patience.
I will, and thanks, good practical advice.
Hey guys, all your input has really helped, if only to boost my confidence a little. In most things I have always employed a science based, analytical approach. In music always a more ‘that sounds good, keep it, that sounds naff, bin it’ approach.
Think with this modal stuff I’m drifting back a little too far to the science / maths side.
My French teacher once told me ‘look, it’s a language, learn to speak it, you can write it down and study it later’.
So, I’m gonna noodle about as you’ve suggested. When I start to hear stuff that sounds good, I’ll have a quick go at working out the notes that make it sound good, but not get buried in the theory!
Thanks again!
Think with this modal stuff I’m drifting back a little too far to the science / maths side.
My French teacher once told me ‘look, it’s a language, learn to speak it, you can write it down and study it later’.
So, I’m gonna noodle about as you’ve suggested. When I start to hear stuff that sounds good, I’ll have a quick go at working out the notes that make it sound good, but not get buried in the theory!
Thanks again!
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