Anyone know if this is the original speaker in my 1964 Princeton Reverb?

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by vanguard, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I'm not saying I know what year it was "built", but if you consider the transformer production dates to equate to the amp production date, that's just unrealistic.
    I've had maybe 20 Fender amps from 57-77 and invariably the transformers were made well before the amp left the factory, simply because Schumacher was not in the Fender factory!

    I / we see this in guitars too, and many mix up pot dates with guitar dates etc, or get upset when a body date is a couple months off a neck date. Pot dates can easily be years prior to guitar dates.

    What I've never seen but it could still exist, is a speaker date OLDER than transformer dates.
    What I typically see is speakers came last and transformers came much earlier.

    Still a solid chance the speaker was replaced even in 50-60yo amps with "correct" date codes on the speaker.
    Lots of us look for correct date code used speakers, and we also blew a lot of those barely adequate speakers made in the '60s!
    But with very high consistency, transformer manufacture dates are well before amp build final assembly/ shipping dates.
    And with similarly high consistency, various dates Fender put in amps were not tied to final assembly dates.
    I think we know that Fender was not putting actual final production dates on amps when they were finished, because it was just not something they valued the way we now obsess over dates.

    If one looked at a bunch of Fender amps with transformers from the end of '64, because Leo kept ahead on electronics parts, many or most of those amps with late '64 transformers didn't ship until early '65.

    The chances Schumacher made transformers in Oct/ Nov, shipped them to fender who typically had transformers in stock well ahead of using them, and Fender sold them in an amp before the end of December, is really pretty slim AFAIK?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  2. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    I guess, more than anything, I'm going off the numerous identical 1964 stamps done by Fender inside the chassis, on the base of the power transformer and on the tube chart, and the lack of Fender badge on the grille cloth. We know without question the chassis and circuit were built in '64 based on those stamps, and that the tube chart was stamped in '64. Of course, we'll never know exactly what went down in the different wings of the factory, but, going by the same logic we do on all vintage Fender dating, this amp is a '64.

    It has been established in this thread the speaker is likely a '75, and, after a couple days research, this seems correct.
     
  3. archetype

    archetype Fiend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    IMO that's just the way Princetons work. They don't lack for bass. As I've turned the volume way up, I've needed to turn the bass way down. There are plenty of folks playing Princetons at 'small gig volume' with bass set between 2 and 0.

    The Oxford may accentuate this effect, especially if it's got a lot of miles on it.
     
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  4. ArcticWhite

    ArcticWhite Tele-Afflicted

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    Put a 12 in it.
    You don't even need to cut the baffle. Just drill four new holes.
     
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  5. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    Thanks for the tip!
     
  6. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    I know that's a popular route, but I actually love the sound of 10" speakers (except when there's four of them!). I'm not a fan of low-end on standard guitar.

    I actually just order a '66 gold label, black frame Jensen C10Q with healthy original cone. I think it'll be just the ticket. Wish it were a '64!
     
  7. SnidelyWhiplash

    SnidelyWhiplash Friend of Leo's

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    Don't ruin a vintage amp by installing a bigger speaker. That's just asinine. :eek:
     
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  8. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    Agreed :cool:
     
  9. Glen W

    Glen W Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    While you're on the look-out for an original 10j4, maybe stick one of these in there for the time being...

    [​IMG]
     
  10. randym

    randym Tele-Meister

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    I agree.
     
  11. slider313

    slider313 Tele-Afflicted

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    This is what you need...............

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. etype

    etype Tele-Afflicted

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    My QF (June 1967) PR has a 1967 chassis. One of the transformers dates to 1966 and the other 1973 (I bought it a few years back, but I assume it was a later replacement). The Oxford speaker date code is 701 (week 1 of 1967?). The speaker code is printed, no sticker.

    To me, the tube chart date code is what matters.
     
  13. Dacious

    Dacious Doctor of Teleocity

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    My '68 Drip Edge VC - ink stamp in chassis was last week of 67. I queried this being between Christmas and New Year but I'm told this is usual inn America.

    Output transformer was 66, power transformer 67 and speaker early 68.

    Now - I've also been told they built stuff all at once in batches.,

    Champs first, then bigger amps. In Leo days inventory was haphazard but CBS tightened it a lot and they were well and truly in control by '66.

    However, my 78 Tele had 78+ features like plastic shaft pots and white wiring sheaths and an 'A'-stamped neck which apparently left the catalogue in. '76.
     
  14. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Does this brown and gold labelled Jensen have ‘Fender’ on the Logo pr ‘Jensen’? If it does not have ‘Fender’ logo printed the lable, then it is worth what the sound is worth. The date is of no importance in such a case. If there is a red or orange mark on the Jensen label, then it came out of a Silvertone amp. Jensens order by Fender had a Fender Logo on them. IF one had a late 1964 Jensen C10R or C10Q with a Fender logo on the label, then THAT speaker would be a higher value speaker due to the value of the Fender amp in which it could have come….that Princeton Reverb or a BFSR for the C10R. I personally have never seen a C10N in a Princeton Reverb. The C10Q is not listed as an OEM speaker for a Prin Rev amp. The C10Q was used in the BF Vibrolux Reverbs.
    http://www.ggjaguar.com/fendamp3.htm

    Here are examples of the difference between an OEM Fender brown and gold label and the Jensen brown and gold label.
    6C82B5C5-A444-48FF-87B2-DAE3CCA49528.jpeg 11F753C2-C384-4E6E-A78A-C63328849F71.jpeg


    As for dating, I might hold the tube chart date as the final arbiter on that question….with the speaker 8n this case being a replacement from 1975.
     
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  15. Jared Purdy

    Jared Purdy Friend of Leo's

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    If you're going for vintage accuracy, I'd follow what @Wally advised me: to forget about the Jensen and buy the Eminence/Alessandro GA 10-SC64. George Allesandro worked with Eminence to design to spec this speaker.

    I emailed him and he actually replied to me. He told me that he tried to work with Jensen but they simply could not (or would not) get it right. He jumped ship, and approached Eminence, and the rest is history. I bought one to replace the P10R in my Custom 64' Hand Wired PR and couldn't be happier. It's a much better sounding speaker right out of the box. The bass is way tighter. Just my $0.02 worth.
     
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  16. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    Man, I hadn't even heard of these speakers until this thread. I'll have to do some research to learn more about how they came to be. If this old c10q doesn't do the job, I'll definitely have to try one of these Eminence out.
     
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  17. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    The one I got is Jensen branded. I'm really weird about aesthetics, and I actually like the look of the Jensen label better. I've really liked these 60s ceramic speakers in the past, so I'm hoping this one will do the job
     
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  18. nedorama

    nedorama Tele-Holic

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    the tube chart date code can help, but again, Leo was cheap and printed these up ahead of time and didn't waste anything. If you really want to date your amp, you need to look at:
    • Tube chart date code
    • Chassis stamp code
    • Transformer codes
    • Choke codes (if it has one)
    • Pot codes
    • Speaker codes

    All together, you can then really tell what year your amp is, but the tube chart on its own has been wrong for dating for many Fender folks.
     
  19. slider313

    slider313 Tele-Afflicted

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    CBS started labeling the speakers, with the Fender logo on the magnet, in open back combo's when they took over in early 1965. Before that they usually had either a Jensen label or in the case of Oxford, no label at all. Earlier Oxford speakers, with bell covers in the brown amps, also had Fender script logo decals.
     
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  20. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    I thought I'd heard that pre CBS Jensens weren't Fender labeled. Thanks for confirming!
     
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