Anyone know if this is the original speaker in my 1964 Princeton Reverb?

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by vanguard, Oct 13, 2021.

  1. slider313

    slider313 Tele-Afflicted

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    The speaker is a '75. A '65 would have the codes stamped on the frame. The decal is also the later type.

    The speaker in this shot is from the 12th week of 1965. Notice the model number 10J4-3 stamped on the frame and the early CBS blue Fender decal.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  2. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Well remember that Leo sold to Columbia because he thought he was dying, and he was sick then.

    More to the point though, the chassis assembly shop was separated from the dusty cabinet shop and the tolex would not be applied with flammable contact cement next to the soldering bench.
    So a finished chassis was not a complete amp "sitting around".
    I'm thinking the workers wiring chassis' were not tolexing cabs or installing speakers for final assembly.

    I believe the tube charts were also stamped in batches on a bench prior to sticking in a cab, without any reverence for final shipping date that we now think about.

    As for the speaker looking like it was removed, could be a recone.
    The codes sticker, IDK but I don't associate that with '70s production either.
    It does seemlike Fender very often put later speakers in cabs with earlier chassis' because chassis building took longer and speakers went in last, when all else was done.
    Still might be a non original speaker but it's just not odd for a Fender amp to have earlier chassis/ transformer dates than speaker and final shipping imagined date.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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  3. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    Thanks so much for chiming in! Looks like it's as I suspected then.

    As mentioned, this speaker seems loud, bassy, and lacking high end. This seems contrary to the typical Oxford descriptors, but it sounds how it sounds.

    I've had ~1958-1967 Jensen speakers in various Fender amps over the years, and I always really liked them. They had more of a scooped tone, with detailed, bright treble, attenuated bass, and a kind of dry, papery timbre. They seem to be lower output than other speakers I experimented with as well, which is a good thing for me.

    Knowing all that, I'm thinking an "r" magnet speaker.
     
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  4. nedorama

    nedorama Tele-Holic

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    If you don't like the Oxfart speaker, I'd avoid getting a Jensen unless you're getting a reconed original and even then it's a crap shoot. New Jensens are rebadged Italian speakers and share nothing with the original company.

    Great options: Weber Alnico 10A125, or my favorite, Kendrick Black Frame. Expensive but worth it. It's what I put in my 1980 PR.
     
  5. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    I should have clarified: I'll be hunting an early '60s C10R, C10Q, or maybe P10R, though I have Alnico speakers in my other amp.

    I wonder if a '63-64 Oxford might sound better than the '75 in there now?
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  6. schmee

    schmee Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    That would be strange for an old Oxford to be too bassy. It should be crisp and scooped. Although, remember the PR's are a bit more bassy than many Fender AB763 amps. I usually end up one notch higher on the treble with a PR.
    Save that speaker.
     
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  7. schmee

    schmee Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    That would be 10th WEEK of production..... So it is early 65.

    Could be a 64 or 65 amp I suppose.
    Many 65 amps have 64 trannies etc.
    Tube charts are notoriously unreliable. For all we know the amps were done but waiting for back ordered speakers.
     
  8. rdjones

    rdjones Tele-Meister

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    The speaker has a CBS part #, and the blue label is easily identifiable as CBS.
    Even if the amp sat around waiting for the speaker, (which I doubt), it would have also got a grille logo.
    If you're wanting to present the amp as "pre-CBS" I can understand not wanting to see the big blue sticker.

    As far as the amp's brightness, the Princetons have the same type of tone stack as the bigger amps.
    What they don't have is a bright cap on the volume control, an easy mod.
     
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  9. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    Yeah, it's unusual. The amp is so bassy that, if I have the bass turned up past 3 or so, I can feel it rumbling the floor. I've never had another amp do that before lol. I have to run the bass at zero for the amp to have a reasonable frequency balance. It only happens when I run the amp through that extant Oxford. Maybe it has been reconed
     
  10. schmee

    schmee Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    The sticker is standard with Oxfords I've seen. But some have stamped also.
    If the transformers are late 64 it seems to me not shipping the amp until '65 makes perfect sense. They had to make sure they had the parts ahead of time. The date code on the trannies is when the tranny was made at Schumacher, which may have been a month or two before Fender even received it, much less put it in an amp.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  11. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    Everything on the amp dates to '64, and every feature is consistent with '64, so I think it's safe to say it's a '64 ;)

    I'm gonna have to look into the bright cap mod!
     
  12. schmee

    schmee Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Maybe you have a failed cap in the tone circuit making the amp bassy? Are you sure both power tubes are working? Maybe it's running on one tube?

    Also though, I cant quite read it ..........but does the speaker sticker say "Hi Temp VC"? That would mean a hi temperature voice coil....... seems unusual for a Princeton! Maybe it is a replacement speaker or maybe this verifies that Fender was having trouble getting the speakers and put something they normally wouldn't in there? Is there a speaker model on the sticker also? It would be something like "10K5" or "10L6" etc

    Have you measured the speaker? Is it 8 ohms or 16 ohms?It might be a PA speaker.... and why it is bassy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  13. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    It's the typical 10J4 part number. I wondered about the high-temp vc designation too--perhaps that treatment had something to do with the odd frequency response.

    The speaker measures ~6.4 ohm

    Here's what appears to be the same speaker, including the high-temp VC
    https://reverb.com/item/45537498-vi...are&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=45537498
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
  14. schmee

    schmee Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    At this point I'm thinking it is a 70's speaker and not original. 10J4 is a light duty speaker. I had 4 here but they had gold unpainted frames with those blue Fender stickers on them. They all sounded terrible.
     
  15. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    I think so too. I imagine it's overbuilt to get that high temp rating as well. Certainly that could make for a clunky, lifeless response.
     
  16. KokoTele

    KokoTele Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    FWIW, I have a P10R that I sometimes put in my Princeton Reverb. With this speaker, there's little headroom and the bass is on the flubby side, but it does sound pretty sweet. The volume output is lower too.

    I have a C10NQ that I custom ordered from Weber before they changed their nomenclature. It's heavy, but much louder with lots of headroom, even response, and sparkly highs.
     
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  17. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    I had a 1960 P10Q in a 6G2 Princeton for a long time. Sounded perfect. Strong and tight, chimey treble, clear lows, and low-moderate volume
     
  18. nedorama

    nedorama Tele-Holic

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    Good catch - was writing stuff down too fast.

    I don't know 65 or 75, but seems others have more experience telling the difference.
     
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  19. magicfingers99

    magicfingers99 Friend of Leo's

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    probably not, I replaced speakers at least 3 times in mine when I was using it in the 1970's. they can eat a speaker if you like to play loud..
     
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  20. vanguard

    vanguard Friend of Leo's

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    . . . oh and I do :twisted:
     
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