Anyone ever tried to sand the finish off an Epi hollowbody?

[johmica]

I know that Lennon had his prized Casino sanded and lightly finished, but the quality of those guitars was a bit different than the quality of the current Chinese-manufactured ones.

I have one of the newer Sheratons with the Frequensator and the mini-humbuckers:

I love this guitar - I swapped out all of the hardware with chrome hardware, and swapped the pickups for Fralins. My only complaint is that the finish is very thick and very plasticky.

I've got a little bit of experience finishing guitars now with StewMac's rattle cans. Here's my first complete project:

And here's my current work-in-progress:

I asked my local luthier (who is very, very, and I mean very good) about stripping it down and refinishing it in nitro lacquer. His response was that the laminates that Epiphone uses now are very thin, and it's difficult to sand them down to the wood (which would be necessary for switching the finish from poly to lacquer) without sanding through a layer of laminate in spots and ruining the wood grain. That sounds reasonable, but it's at least possible that his answer was a generous way of saying, "there's no way I'm taking on that project." He stays very busy without entertaining my crazy ideas, so the second explanation is equally likely.

I wouldn't want to use solvents, because I'd be afraid of ruining the binding. But I've got all the time in the world, and I wouldn't mind having a go at sanding it, if I thought that there was a reasonable likelihood that I'd be successful. I'd also intend to sand the sides and back of the headstock, but leave the face in poly. I'm just too nervous about ruining the logo. What do you veterans think?

 

[bender66]

That Jupiter...

 

[Paulie_Boy]

Groovy

 

[johmica]

That Jupiter...

Yeah, as you can tell, I'm still working on the wiring. I just haven't taken the time to break out the soldering iron. But the finish turned out really, really well. It is a cheap Chinese kit guitar. I wanted to learn on something that I didn't mind destroying. But I'm really happy with the results. Not perfect - I had some minor failures with the grain fill - but a great learning experience, nonetheless.

 

[Freeman Keller]

And a lefty. The Epi is probably laminated (maple?, its hard to tell). As such be careful with sanding that you don't sand thru a ply. Also if there was any stain applied to the wood it will be hard to remove.

If its poly heat is your best bet, lacquer will come off with paint stripper, acetone or lacquer thinner. Be very careful of the binding and inlays.

Ps - when you pull the harness out tape off the holes and leave strings to fish the pots back in.

 

[Zarkon]

You'd need to be careful around the binding, but what about using a heat gun and a scraper?

 

[dogmeat]

poly is tough. very hard to remove... some of them are extra very hard to remove. you won't know how hard until you hack into it. if I were going to do this I would remove the pick guard and test a small spot with paint stripper to see if it does anything at all. put on a small dot and cover it with plastic like from a sandwich bag. if that works, thats what I would use first. if it doesn't you can prolly compound out any stain it may have made. as for sanding... that will be a LOT of work without something to strip most the finish first. and yeah, easy to sand through the ply unless very careful. look into scrapers. they are a traditional tool that probably predate sandpaper. there are sets available. I've bought them but I have also made my own out of an old saw blade. cut to desired shape, file a 45 degree edge, hone it down sharp, then burnish it over to give it a burr edge to scrape with.

if you are going to clear coat then you probably don't need to worry about getting every speck of the old stuff off, if you want to stain... good luck with that. you should be able to spray color coats if you want though.

 

[jvin248]

.

Many dream of stripping and repainting a guitar. It seems like a romantic pursuit.

Very few do it more than once. It's tedious, boring, messy, and the damage incurred during stripping shows up in the final finish. It's not a project for the faint of heart.

If you want to finish a guitar yourself, just buy a Harley Benton guitar kit that runs $85 or so. All the sanding and painting you want. Hollow body version available.

.

 

[Mr. St. Paul]

I would reckon that the poly finish on a modern-day Epi would be extremely difficult to remove. No slight on your skills, the pics you posted show you can do exemplary work.

Have you considered taking the components off, then using a white Scotchbrite pad on the guitar? Dulls the bright poly finish. Then use some Meguiars polish to smooth it out. Looks more like a nitro finish if you take the time. A matte finish instead of a shiny, sticky finish.

 

[fretknot]

I've not been entirely happy with my endeavors into stripping finishes off perfectly good guitars. The easiest finishes to remove are lacquer, because they can be wiped off with solvents. Removing a poly finish involves heat and scraping and will make a huge mess. I would caution anyone attempting to use abrasives on a laminated instrument. One sand-through and the process fails. Additionally, it's easy to overdo it with a heat gun and leave dark areas on lighter woods. If you proceed with this I wish you the best outcome. I've learned my lessons on this subject the hard (and expensive) way. Never again for me.

 

[Boreas]

The problem with sanding a hollow-body is that they are not flat. This makes it very difficult to remove the finish evenly. Go a micron too deep and you damage the patina/stain, making a much larger problem. This is made more difficult because you will have no obvious "color guide" to let you know how deep you are. Few GOOD refinishers could do it by sanding alone.

Chemical strippers can also be problematic with uneven removal - especially if you find you need to stain yhe wood. Stripping, if not done just right, can leave you with a rather lifeless result.

I agree with others above who mention de-glossing the finish as a way to "soften" the feel of the poly. 3M pads work well for this. But it may need to be re-done occasionally in wear areas.

Another option would be an overspray with nitro. I find this minimizes that plastic feel. But it will wear and age like any nitro and if it wears through to the poly, it can peel or flake. However it can be fairly easily stripped down to the poly and sprayed again.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[Freeman Keller]

I have stripped two nitro finished guitars, both were something that I made and finished and wasn't happy with the work that I did. I used the methylene chloride paint remove that you can no longer buy in the US. The projects went well, I'm happy with the results.

Lacquer refinish

I recently refinished one of my guitars and posted a couple of pictures at the WIYWBT thread at the DIY forum. It got a few comments and I thought I would elaborate and post the whole procedure here. One reason for doing that is the refinishing process involved all of the steps that I take -...

www.tdpri.com

I've never tried stripping poly of any kind. In fact I don't work on these finishes for touch ups or repairs. I've watched threads on this forum where people strip modern finishes, that has convinced me I don't want to do it.

I would also not consider removing finish with abrasives alone (sanding), there is too much chance of damaging the wood and in this case, sanding thru the 40 thousands veneer.

And just for the heck of it, here is a semi hollow that I built for a lefty friend

 

[drmordo]

FWIW, about 11 years ago I played an expensive variant of the Casino that had essentially no finish. I am sure it had been sealed with a coat of something, but it was a very thin finish.

I couldn't tell any difference in sound between it and any other Casino.

 

[pmjennin]

I stripped an MIK Ibanez acoustic with a thick polyester finish once. It took forever and and was incredibly messy and I inevitably ended up with a few spots where I cut through the top layer of the mahogany veneer sides/back. I wouldn't do it again, but the guitar also had other issues so I approached it from the standpoint of "nothing to lose".

All that said, in the end, the guitar now sounds and feels wonderful compared to how it did before. If I hadn't done this, I'd have probably chucked it. I now enjoy playing it.

 

[stratisfied]

I know that Lennon had his prized Casino sanded and lightly finished, but the quality of those guitars was a bit different than the quality of the current Chinese-manufactured ones.

I have one of the newer Sheratons with the Frequensator and the mini-humbuckers:

View attachment 1317902

I love this guitar - I swapped out all of the hardware with chrome hardware, and swapped the pickups for Fralins. My only complaint is that the finish is very thick and very plasticky.

First, let me say I wouldn't be willing to risk destroying a very nice guitar unless I was absolutely sure of my ability to do a professional quality refinish. Removing the polyurethane finish is an exercise in futility and you will likely destroy the bindings and sand through the maple veneer in the process. The Sheraton was meant to be a glitzy guitar.

You can try to lightly scuff the finish with a scotchbrite and see if you can get close to a satin finish, but the 2 part catalyzed urethane finish on those guitars is hard as a rock. Some have had success sanding the gloss off with wet 600-800 grit paper.

You can also overspray the finish with matte clear lacquer. Clean the guitar of grease and oil (use mineral spirits) and spray a light coat of Duplicolor Adhesion Promoter followed by a light coat of matte lacquer for that unfinished look. The adhesion promotor replaces the need to sand the existing finish so that the entire process is reversible with a lacquer thinner wipe-down without affecting the original finish.

You may want to check the Epiphone forums for the experiences of others, but all will involve sanding the existing finish and there is no return.

 

[fenderchamp]

I know that Lennon had his prized Casino sanded and lightly finished, but the quality of those guitars was a bit different than the quality of the current Chinese-manufactured ones.

I have one of the newer Sheratons with the Frequensator and the mini-humbuckers:

View attachment 1317902

I love this guitar - I swapped out all of the hardware with chrome hardware, and swapped the pickups for Fralins. My only complaint is that the finish is very thick and very plasticky.

I've got a little bit of experience finishing guitars now with StewMac's rattle cans. Here's my first complete project:

View attachment 1317903

And here's my current work-in-progress:

View attachment 1317904

I asked my local luthier (who is very, very, and I mean very good) about stripping it down and refinishing it in nitro lacquer. His response was that the laminates that Epiphone uses now are very thin, and it's difficult to sand them down to the wood (which would be necessary for switching the finish from poly to lacquer) without sanding through a layer of laminate in spots and ruining the wood grain. That sounds reasonable, but it's at least possible that his answer was a generous way of saying, "there's no way I'm taking on that project." He stays very busy without entertaining my crazy ideas, so the second explanation is equally likely.

I wouldn't want to use solvents, because I'd be afraid of ruining the binding. But I've got all the time in the world, and I wouldn't mind having a go at sanding it, if I thought that there was a reasonable likelihood that I'd be successful. I'd also intend to sand the sides and back of the headstock, but leave the face in poly. I'm just too nervous about ruining the logo. What do you veterans think?

I think stripping them with a heat gun and a scraper is the way people, who have any success or experience with it, generally approach those super thick polyester finishes, I've never done it, but I have seen it in person, I don't think a clear finish on maple was what they ended up with though. I've never seen it on a laminate construction epiphone thinline. A clear finish on maple is very unforgiving. As has been pointed out, you'd probably melt the binding as well.

I'd probably save my nickels for a Gibson or a vintage example (ouch) if I was that bothered by the finish, and like you, bothered by it I would be.

If you were going to paint it matte black or white or surf-green or something it would probably be okey. If you want a piano black lacquer finish or clear maple...I'm not so sure. Stripping is usually a safer approach to remove an old finish on a guitar than sanding in general.

I've also seen examples where people have sanded through the laminate layers and it doesn't look great, it looks splotchy and the grain doesn't match up or flow anymore, at that point I would paint a guitar of mine that looked like that.

 

[Boreas]

First, let me say I wouldn't be willing to risk destroying a very nice guitar unless I was absolutely sure of my ability to do a professional quality refinish. Removing the polyurethane finish is an exercise in futility and you will likely destroy the bindings and sand through the maple veneer in the process. The Sheraton was meant to be a glitzy guitar.

You can try to lightly scuff the finish with a scotchbrite and see if you can get close to a satin finish, but the 2 part catalyzed urethane finish on those guitars is hard as a rock. Some have had success sanding the gloss off with wet 600-800 grit paper.

You can also overspray the finish with matte clear lacquer. Clean the guitar of grease and oil (use mineral spirits) and spray a light coat of Duplicolor Adhesion Promoter followed by a light coat of matte lacquer for that unfinished look. The adhesion promotor replaces the need to sand the existing finish so that the entire process is reversible with a lacquer thinner wipe-down without affecting the original finish.

You may want to check the Epiphone forums for the experiences of others, but all will involve sanding the existing finish and there is no return.

I have found that using a ScotchBrite pad seems to help with the tactile sensation of "glossy poly" even if it doesn't modify the actual visual gloss much. Perhaps only a microscopic effect - perhaps my imagination. But it is what I would try first of I absolutely couldn't stand the "feel" of the finish. Some people may get a similar tactile effect from waxes, but I would be reluctant to use wax products if I was considering any kind of NEW finish down the road. Beyond de-glossing, I would tend to do a nitro overspray.

 

[Mgeek]

The luthier is right, there is next to no way you can this finish off without ruining it in some way.

That poly is thick, the veneer making up the ply is thin, it’s not a flat surface.

 

[jingle-jangle]

I'm a pro luthier with over 800 refinishes under my dusty belt. What you should do, in my opinion, is remove the finish by carefully sandng and scraping--looks like you have the basic skills already--and seal the finally-sanded surface with lacquer sanding sealer. Final surface should be #320 aluminum oxide open coat. This will raise the grain. After the sealer has dried hard and has been sanded lightly a second time to flatten the grain nubs, spray at least two wet coats of semi-gloss clear lacquer. You're "finished" at this point. Your Epi will probably show more resonance--the main reason JL had this done to his.

 

[dogrocketp]

John Lennon’s Casino was a hollow body with P90’s, yours is a semi hollow with humbuckers. Because it’s a laminated guitar, there shouldn’t be any change in sound after the finish is removed. John did his under the theory that it allowed the wood to vibrate better. If you hate the way the finish looks and feels, I’d scotch brite it if it was my guitar. I had one and just left it alone.