Anyone else "amping hot"?

[ahiddentableau]

I agree that that kind of approach seems to work especially well on something like a tweed champ. Whether it's the compression like you suggest or not I don't know. My guess is that a lot to do with it is the dirtier base tone. I think it's to do with something like the opposite of headroom. When your starting point is already more distorted the impact of the guitar volume is more noticeable, but also seems to allow the cleaner sound to work out better. I find it's the same thing when using a fuzz face. You turn it up full whack and then use the volume knob to get every shade from crystal clean to full on fuzz.

 

[Willie Johnson]

I don't amp hot, but this guy flutes moist:

 

[El Tele Lobo]

I agree that that kind of approach seems to work especially well on something like a tweed champ. Whether it's the compression like you suggest or not I don't know. My guess is that a lot to do with it is the dirtier base tone. I think it's to do with something like the opposite of headroom. When your starting point is already more distorted the impact of the guitar volume is more noticeable, but also seems to allow the cleaner sound to work out better. I find it's the same thing when using a fuzz face. You turn it up full whack and then use the volume knob to get every shade from crystal clean to full on fuzz.

Well, the way I am using it, I’m cranking the amp and backing off the guitar volume to keep a clean tone, but with more compression and fullness. So not really going for distortion.

 

[ahiddentableau]

Well, the way I am using it, I’m cranking the amp and backing off the guitar volume to keep a clean tone, but with more compression and fullness. So not really going for distortion.

Pretty sure I follow you, but I think in a tweed champ context that's still creating harmonic distortion in a pretty big way. Unless your champ is way tamer than mine.

 

[El Tele Lobo]

Pretty sure I follow you, but I think in a tweed champ context that's still creating harmonic distortion in a pretty big way. Unless your champ is way tamer than mine.

That makes sense… That would explain why, unless I’m right in the sweet spot, certain frequencies come across a little harsh.… Even in clean settings. Which is part of the reason I bought the Hendrickson bud… Although, the champ still sounds warmer in some respects.

 

[kneedtospeed]

Murder rate up, but domestic assault is down. Crabs went up, but Old Bay is still cheap. Go Orioles. Ha, ha...

The price of meat has just gone up, an your ole lady has just gone down

 

[Silverface]

No it doesn’t - since it really depends on the gain structure of each amp, as well as other factors such as speaker choice, and whether or not you’re using vintage output single coils or hot humbucker pickups, etc…

That said, similarly designed amps can elicit similar results, such as “tweed” or “plexi” circuits, which tend to break up in a more predictable fashion.

Otherwise, a fairly low gain amp cranked all the way up can sound ratty and harsh, whereas a super high gain amp can become a mushy mess with its volume set only half way.

An amp’s preamp and tone stack often determines the overall gain structure, as well as negative feedback settings. Anyway, a “one size fits all” approach doesn’t always work, even playing through amps of similar types. Certain amps may even sound better at lower volumes.

For instance, if I were going for super clean tones at a moderate sized gig, I might consider using a Fender Twin with its volume set to “2”.

So, needless to say, one has to use their ears to determine “sweet spot” rather than knob settings…


.

The amp, in most cases, doesn't matter (assuming a quality tube amp).Virtually every good tube amp sounds its best at or just below the top of its headroom. That's where it's most efficient.

Working with an amp tech to optimize the sound of each amp at its headroom limit is key - bias settings, preamp tubes, the right speaker(s) etc are critical - and pedals will be eliminated (mostly gain pedals)... and a good tech will work with you to dial in the sound of each amp based on your other gear, guitars, and musical styles.

A Twin at "2" is exactly the opposite of what the topic's about, and results in a thin sound as the power section of the amp is not being driven hard (which it otherwise will be, regardless out output level as controlled by the guitar.)

My only issue with this is that for practice situations alone, the amp noise is much louder

If the noise is louder your amp(s) need work or the power supply (wall sockets)need to be checked for polarity, grounds, and motorized appliances, dimmers and/or fluorescent lighting on the same circuit breaker.

Or you may be missing the point - at home practice output levels you would be using the lowest output amp you have - generally not more than a 2-10 watt amp with a single 10 or 12". You're not going to use a Deluxe Reverb or AC15 as a home practice amp unless you have a soundproof practice room.

This whole system hinges on having multiple tube amps, each appropriate to the specific venues you play. If you only play ONE club and don't plan to move beyond that, all you'd need is an excellent practice amp, and two gig amps (one - I would hope obviously - being your backup. Gigging with only one amp is musical suicide.)

I have my amp(s) volume at the "sweet" tonal spot and use a volume pedal as needed.

I skipped this as did the OP - but it works just as well in MOST cases.

I was using a Carl's Custom Guitars attenuator. Works well. Starts to cut the high end a little at more than 50% attenuation.
Then I got a BBE Maxcom for the FX loop. 2 channel sonic maximizer/comp/gate, last in the stereo FX loop chain. Each channel has an output level so I use that to attenuate and match the levels of the two amps.

An attenuator - ESPECIALLY placed in an effects loop (before the power section) is completely counter to the whole idea of tone optimization. You're not driving the amp's output section hard - which is a major component of a good sounding rig. You're only reducing the output of the PREAMP section, not giving the output stage the "drive" you need.

And a compressor further fouls your tone by negating pick attack.

But, towards the end of the night when everybody is really cooking and things have gotten loud, you also have your guitar's volume pretty much dimed !!!

No - because you are already close to the maximum volume level that's appropriate to the venue by using your lowest-output amp for the place - one that can't hit excessive volume. You can raise the guitar volume enough for clean solos and a bit more to push THAT amp into mild saturation.

So when things are "really cooking", everyone is getting the most optimized tone and the entire band sounds its best. That relies on playing skill - not excessive volume.

It does help a lot to match your amp power to the room you need to fill as much as possible.

That’s one reason why I have multiple amps.

^^^^^^THIS!
Since about 1980 owned at least 5-6 amps, ranging from Champs/AC5's to Twins/100W JCM800's - but by 2000 or so the 100 watt amps were simply useless for club players who were optimizing their tone by using the method suggested by the OP. They were FAR too loud with the tone optimized; many clubs were starting to use house PA's and mic'd amps; and clubs were starting to use SPL meters to tell bands to lower the volume.

I had to stop gigging about 6 years ago due to some medical issues - but (except in isolated cases where hardcore or metal was played) I hadn't seen a 100 watt amp in a club in about 15 years...and even 40-50 watt amps were rarely seen. Deluxe and Princeton Reverbs (and clones), AC15's (AC30's have output close to Super or Pro Reverbs; AC15's closer to DR's) and the many similar 2xEL84 amps, Marshall +/- 20 watt Bluesbreakers and such were most common.

all I am saying is that I have played large places and still NEVER EVER had to crank my amp any of them up much past 5 tops..

I think you're missing the point of the thread (read the OP), which is using an amp that is appropriate to the venue. It works best when run just below the top of its headroom with guitar controls rolled back 15-20%.

An amp that can only be turned up to 5 is the wrong amp for the venue and definitely not running anywhere near its optimum tone.

I agree that that kind of approach seems to work especially well on something like a tweed champ. Whether it's the compression like you suggest or not I don't know.

You're missing the critical point of the thread - the size of the amp is irrelevant - it's the size of the amp (meaning the output level) as appropriate to the size of the venue that's key. That's how you get the optimum tone is each place.

 

[monkeybanana]

For sure the sweet spot is sweet on all amps. Below? eh but an EQ pedal or a pedal with a lot of color (like a Flint) can solve that problem if you just want a good tone and not necessarily crunch.

 

[ETMusic777]

I don't know the term for this so pardon my arbitrary description. I hear a lot of people complain about a variety of amps not sounding good unless they are played at high volume and often end up too loud for practical situations, whether at home or on a gig. Something I started doing in the last year or so that has gotten me around this is turning my amps up (Tweed Champ clone with a 12" ceramic speaker and more recently, a Henriksen Bud 6)...either all the way or much higher than is practical and then rolling my volume off on the guitar until I find the sweet spot. In most situations, I find this works better than trying to dial in the sweet spot with the guitar volume (and tone) wide open. Now, admittedly, I use my volume and tone knobs probably more than the average cat, especially since I play jazz most of the time, but this has worked really well for me.

I feel like what we're after when turning up an amp is more natural compression and harmonics, which are sometimes hard to get lower on the volume dial (on the amp). I don't know if this would work with every amp, b/c the Champ is a fairly compressed sounding amp anyway (to my ears) and the Bud has the Input Gain knob, which adds more amp compression as you turn it up.

Discuss, brothers.

Ive never liked doing that. I dont like rolling off the volume of my guitar more than 20-25% maximum. Guitars lose some tone, in my opinion and experience, when you do that. I know that Pete Thorn recommended doing that in his "Amps in the Zone" you tube video featuring his BF Super Reverb, but its not my thing.

That said, when I rewired this 94 Am. Tele which I recently acquired, I used 500K pots which are brighter than 250K. I then added a .047 cap which is a vintage Fender/Ajax cap from one of my old amps as the tone cap. This really worked out great because when I roll down the volume, or tone knobs the cap adds milkiness to the tone and takes off the brightness. So for this particular guitar config, I dont mind rolling off some volume a bit. Perhaps this is a mod that I need to do with all of my guitars.

 

[ETMusic777]

Somewhat relevant to this discussion...

 

[BlueGillGreg]

You are on a great track! I already posted here (probably a little too lengthy) about what you’re speaking of, but I also have a push push volume taken from an old Yamaha that is still working great with regular upkeep, after many years working.

As to the Gibson style set up 2V 2T, If you’re not hip to it, there’s a few ways to wire the pots, vintage, modern, & more. They may be described as one more friendly for people that twiddle knobs, and The other more for wide-open players? Forgive me, if I’m telling you something you already know.

I would shoot myself right out of James Bond’s car-I’m a knob twiddler (TMI for many) & a button pusher.

 

[BlueGillGreg]

Thanks for the reply, it's helpful. That Korean "Less Paul" has great attitude, good sound, and crappy controls. Any tips on best place to get an overview of re-doing a VVTT control section?

 

[AxemanVR]

Virtually every good tube amp sounds its best at or just below the top of its headroom. That's where it's most efficient.

A Twin at "2" is exactly the opposite of what the topic's about, and results in a thin sound as the power section of the amp is not being driven hard

While I tend to mostly agree that pushing a tube amp generally results in a more robust, lush tone, I also have tube amps that sound great well below the mythical “edge of breakup” zone.

Single-ended Class A tube amps like my Fender Vibro Champ are working that one tube hard to begin with, which may explain why I can play it at “4” and still get a rich satisfying tone.

My Fender 5E3 Deluxe, on the other hand, is a whole ‘nother story altogether…

Due to the interaction between the two channel’s Volume controls, in order to get decent clean headroom I have the INST volume set to around “4” and the MIC volume adjusted to reduce the overall gain (higher = less gain). This is no doubt due in part to the simple tone stack and lack of negative feedback in the 5E3 design which affects the gain structure, making it harmonically “fat” no matter where the main volume is set.

Btw, I almost always have my Fender Deluxe’s volume and gain set at or above the “breakup zone” (which is the reason I got it) so I’m certainly not arguing against that point.

As far as the “Twin at 2” thing goes, it can somewhat depend on what you’re trying to do…

For soloing I agree, a Fender Twin would sound thin and weak set at “2”. But for full-on chording in a moderate sized venue it might be perfectly fine.

So, in that sense (not that I’d want to lug a Fender Twin around to do this) one could have a two amp A/B setup; where a Deluxe is cranked up to get that glorious overdrive sustained crunch, while the Twin is used for cleaner background rhythm parts - again, assuming you’re playing in a smaller club setting.

So I’m not arguing that all tube amps will sound great in every situation, at all settings, but that these things aren’t always necessarily so cut and dry either…

.

 

[AxemanVR]

Somewhat relevant to this discussion...

I’m a total Fryette PS fan.

So (all my previous statements aside), let’s just say for the sake of argument that I only own the two tube guitar amps mentioned earlier; a Fender Deluxe and a Fender Twin Reverb - which I plan to switch between in various live (i.e. “unpredictable”) performance situations (with or without a PA system).

In that particular case I would definitely have each connected to their own Fryette Power Station so I can set them to perform at their optimum levels, while tailoring each to best suit their individual sonic requirements accordingly.

Anyway, here is my current Deluxe setup, ready to rock the house without sacrificing tone or worrying about being either too quiet or too loud:

The pedal is a DOD FX40B EQ that’s running through the PS-100’s effects loop to further fine tune the signal.

On the most part I can set the 2-channel PS-100 to get both Lead and Rhythm tones on the Deluxe (if I am only able to take the one amp) and still be plenty confident that I can get the sweet tones I desire at practically any volume level necessary to satisfyingly pull it off…

.

 

[Silverface]

For sure the sweet spot is sweet on all amps. Below? eh but an EQ pedal or a pedal with a lot of color (like a Flint) can solve that problem if you just want a good tone and not necessarily crunch

The topic had nothing to do with "crunch". And "below" the "sweet spot" (with the guitar controls - plural - rolled off 15-20%) is what gives you the "wiggle room" for clean solos to mild saturation. (not sure what your "eh" or "Below?" since they really say nothing at all it the context of your post.)

And an EQ or ANY pedal can't do the same thing as optimizing an amp's tone and using the right amp in the right venue. Again, it's very valuable to have a good, professional amp tech who can make sure your amps (NOTE: "amps" - not "amp") are all optimized for your rig and the style you play.

Guitars lose some tone, in my opinion and experience, when you do that.

See below.

Perhaps this is a mod that I need to do with all of my guitars.

"Perhaps"? This is why an amp/guitar tech who will work WITH you - not just "fix stuff"

 

[ETMusic777]

I’m a total Fryette PS fan.

So (all my previous statements aside), let’s just say for the sake of argument that I only own the two tube guitar amps mentioned earlier; a Fender Deluxe and a Fender Twin Reverb - which I plan to switch between in various live (i.e. “unpredictable”) performance situations (with or without a PA system).

In that particular case I would definitely have each connected to their own Fryette Power Station so I can set them to perform at their optimum levels, while tailoring each to best suit their individual sonic requirements accordingly.

Anyway, here is my current Deluxe setup, ready to rock the house without sacrificing tone or worrying about being either too quiet or too loud:


View attachment 1099551


The pedal is a DOD FX40B EQ that’s running through the PS-100’s effects loop to further fine tune the signal.

On the most part I can set the 2-channel PS-100 to get both Lead and Rhythm tones on the Deluxe (if I am only able to take the one amp) and still be plenty confident that I can get the sweet tones I desire at practically any volume level necessary to satisfyingly pull it off…

.

Nice. I hope that Fryette comes out with a 2 channel PS for channel switching....or lower cost units with less controls which can be purchased more affordably and used with each amp. I think a 2 channel solution would be better, but I don't know if they could build all of that in one unit without it being massive. Fryette has a weekly live show which they do on youtube, so maybe I will ask them if they have plans for something.

 

[Silverface]

While I tend to mostly agree that pushing a tube amp generally results in a more robust, lush tone, I also have tube amps that sound great well below the mythical “edge of breakup” zone.

Respectfully, I ithink you missed the point a bit.

Sure, some amps sound great at a lower volume level.

But there's a difference between "sounding great" at one volume level and sounding great at ALL volume levels - PLUS having amps that all react predictably to player/guitar control input.

That's the point, and having "an" amp that sounds great at "a" lower volume level isn't relevant.

It's having your sound optimized going into a gig, and knowing you can predictably use the guitar's controls to easily increase volume for clean leads, and having just a bit more room that will slide into mild saturation.

Your amps that sound great "well below..." can't do that - and the "breakup zone" is neither mythical nor part of the discussion - "mild saturation" is NOT "breakup" - it's just a tiny bit of hair, but with excellent note separation (I'm trying REALLY hard to avoid using the "D" word as a reference point). Not distortion (which FAR too many players incorrectly dump into a huge bucket they label "overdrive") or fuzz. For those either a second channel or pedals are used.

This is where it takes either a professional amp/guitar tech or being a "self contained" player/tech to dial in your sound so that it's reasonably consistent at any volume level.

It really helps the player, as they don't have to worry about their sound as long as they take the right amp(s) - in known situations, a primary and a backup (every gigging player should carry a backup amp); in others where only a general amount of info is known - normally a primary, backup, and one a step down in output (in case the place in smaller, and tight controls over volume etc; and two can be used if more output is needed). Obviously, the player and tech will have things dialed-in to the point of being very predictable.

It's not THAT hard, but does require some investment in gear and possibly tech fees. But around here "my one amp will fit all" players do a lot of sitting while those with optimized, multi-amp setups are in more demand than they can handle.

And their tone is predictable/consistent at ALL volume levels, because their amps respond consistently to all input between the player's forearms and the input jack.

 

[monkeybanana]

The topic had nothing to do with "crunch". And "below" the "sweet spot" (with the guitar controls - plural - rolled off 15-20%) is what gives you the "wiggle room" for clean solos to mild saturation. (not sure what your "eh" or "Below?" since they really say nothing at all it the context of your post.)

And an EQ or ANY pedal can't do the same thing as optimizing an amp's tone and using the right amp in the right venue. Again, it's very valuable to have a good, professional amp tech who can make sure your amps (NOTE: "amps" - not "amp") are all optimized for your rig and the style you play.

See below.

"Perhaps"? This is why an amp/guitar tech who will work WITH you - not just "fix stuff"

Let me try again. Tube amps sound like eh if they are on low. But I can still get a good sound late night with an EQ pedal. If I want to overdrive the amp then obviously that's not gonna work. Make sense?

 

[AxemanVR]

Respectfully, I ithink you missed the point a bit.

Sure, some amps sound great at a lower volume level.

But there's a difference between "sounding great" at one volume level and sounding great at ALL volume levels - PLUS having amps that all react predictably to player/guitar control input.

That's the point, and having "an" amp that sounds great at "a" lower volume level isn't relevant.

It's having your sound optimized going into a gig, and knowing you can predictably use the guitar's controls to easily increase volume for clean leads, and having just a bit more room that will slide into mild saturation.

Your amps that sound great "well below..." can't do that - and the "breakup zone" is neither mythical nor part of the discussion - "mild saturation" is NOT "breakup" - it's just a tiny bit of hair, but with excellent note separation (I'm trying REALLY hard to avoid using the "D" word as a reference point). Not distortion (which FAR too many players incorrectly dump into a huge bucket they label "overdrive") or fuzz. For those either a second channel or pedals are used.

This is where it takes either a professional amp/guitar tech or being a "self contained" player/tech to dial in your sound so that it's reasonably consistent at any volume level.

It really helps the player, as they don't have to worry about their sound as long as they take the right amp(s) - in known situations, a primary and a backup (every gigging player should carry a backup amp); in others where only a general amount of info is known - normally a primary, backup, and one a step down in output (in case the place in smaller, and tight controls over volume etc; and two can be used if more output is needed). Obviously, the player and tech will have things dialed-in to the point of being very predictable.

It's not THAT hard, but does require some investment in gear and possibly tech fees. But around here "my one amp will fit all" players do a lot of sitting while those with optimized, multi-amp setups are in more demand than they can handle.

And their tone is predictable/consistent at ALL volume levels, because their amps respond consistently to all input between the player's forearms and the input jack.

I really don’t think we’re at odds with each other as much as it seems, since it’s clear we are both taking about “gain structure” not “overdrive”, although we can’t dismiss “distortion” either way, since even a clean amp has distortion (which is often arbitrarily called “fat”, “full”, “rich”, “lush”, etc).

What degree or range this phenomenon occurs in each amp may vary, but it’s still there one way or another.

All I’m trying to say is tube amps aren’t limited to a predetermined range of goodness, since goodness can be coaxed in a number of different ways, with some ways not necessarily requiring cranking it.

The best amps have a wider usable “clean to dirty” range in my experience…

.

 

[Silverface]

Let me try again. Tube amps sound like eh if they are on low. But I can still get a good sound late night with an EQ pedal. If I want to overdrive the amp then obviously that's not gonna work. Make sense?

Yes (although "eh" is sorta ambiguous). I know what you mean, but you're describing a "one amp boosted with an EQ pedal" method/sound. That's not the point.

The point is that a properly serviced/optimized amp will sound its best at just below the top of its headroom (with other details described in detail earlier.) - and if you play multiple venues, how to get consistent, predictable, controllable clean tone every time