Ancient stainless steel discovered

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Collin D Plonker, Sep 23, 2020.

  1. Collin D Plonker

    Collin D Plonker Tele-Afflicted

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  2. kbold

    kbold Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    Persian luthiers were slaves.
    The Persian King was unhappy with the wear on has brass frets.
    One luthier lived a longer life.
     
  3. CapnCrunch

    CapnCrunch Friend of Leo's

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    The poor Persian luthier burned up the first prototype tele trying to heat treat his newly invented stainless frets. The king was unhappy and made him start forging swords. The king used the first chromium steel sword to take the royal luthier's head off. Turns out he was a much better smith than he was a luthier........

    Seriously though, this is pretty amazing news. No one had any inkling that anyone was making chromium steel before about 100 years ago. Tool steels and other hybrids are animals of the 20th century. It was not that long ago that we discovered that the Persians were making crucible steel in the middle ages, and now we find out that not only were they making crucible steel, they were making "modern" steel almost 1000 years ago.
     
  4. Slowpoke

    Slowpoke Tele-Afflicted

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    While on the subject of stainless steel can somebody explain why cutlery labeled as stainless steel will still be attracted to a magnet. When carbon is removed to make it stainless steel and its the carbon within that attracts it to a magnet. Just asking for a friend.. S
     
  5. String Tree

    String Tree Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    1,000 years ago, man was Obsessed with Tone.
    This is our Proof.
     
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  6. loco gringo

    loco gringo Tele-Holic Gold Supporter

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    Martensitic and ferritic stainless steels are magnetic.
     
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  7. Buckaroo65

    Buckaroo65 Tele-Meister

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    There's some clowns who wrote a song about it, but I ain't goin' there...
     
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  8. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Wow. An interesting find. Metallurgy is a fascinating world and I can imagine the experimentation during that era. I wonder how much they knew what they were on to.
     
  9. sudogeek

    sudogeek Tele-Meister

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    Carbon is not magnetic nor paramagnetic. Steel is chiefly iron which is.
     
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  10. glenlivet

    glenlivet Tele-Holic

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    Yea...it is interesting to try and think back to the mind set of "lets try this"...on the other hand, there were also probably experiments / combinations that literally blew up in peoples faces....
     
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  11. Peegoo

    Peegoo Friend of Leo's

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    Hang on now, everybody...don't get too excited. The writer makes some pretty huge assertions. From the article:

    "Excavations at Chahak resulted in the discovery of residual charcoal in old crucible slag (waste matter that’s left over after the metal has been separated). Radiocarbon dating of this charcoal yielded a date range between the 10th and 12th centuries CE. A scanning electron microscope was used to analyze the slag samples, revealing traces of ore mineral chromite. Finally, an analysis of steel particles found in the slag suggests the Chahak crucible steel contained between 1% to 2% chromium by weight."

    The picture he shows implies there's a steel rod in the slag, but it's just a lucky slice through a teensy BB of metal, probably an unintended combination of metals during the smelting process into a stainless-like alloy.

    The huge Persian elephant in the room, however, is this: why are there no stainless steel weapons from the period having been discovered in excavations in Iran and the surrounding area? Think about that for three seconds and it would make sense there would be way more of these in museums than iron swords, spears, and knives.
     
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  12. glenlivet

    glenlivet Tele-Holic

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    because they used it for frets....

    2020-09-25 11_16_17-duh meme - Google Search.png
     
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  13. Musekatcher

    Musekatcher Friend of Leo's

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    Good read, and contemplative. I just re-read the sequence of the Stone age, the Bronze age, and the Iron age. I had thought that alloying knowledge held back iron and steel development, but it its believed iron's high melting point delayed the development of steel thousands of years, while bronze was the primary metal of choice, tin and copper having low melting points. So the "Iron Age" is really the steel age, with the exploitation of carbon steel and eventually high alloys.

    I also have always thought of bronze and brass as the original stainless metal, being corrosion resistant. its corrosion resistance and strength is highly useful in maritime and nautical applications. Stainless steel was exotic only 40 years ago, but now, its as common and cheap as brass. And its available in about any set of properties you need, it can be extremely ductile, it can be extremely hard, it can be weldable, it can have high thermal resistance, it can be magnetic (yep), it can be highly corrosion resistant - but like all metals, no single alloy can be all of those, so you get to pick a couple three to maximize.

    Thanks for posting. I get excited thinking about high alloy steels, exotics, nickel alloys...MP35N!!! [what a geek..].
     
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  14. BorderRadio

    BorderRadio Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    The assumption being made is that there are no stainless steel artifacts dating from the same period. We don't know that, simply because it's impossible to test every single steel tool made since that time. There are probably other projects happening now that use XRF and other techniques to look at Persian artifacts from secured provenience to determine if any are made of low-grade stainless steel. The end of the article says that traces of chromium are actually useful for sourcing these artifacts--which if were of good quality, might be still intact (if museums have them, not collectors). Don't forget, a portion of tools were potentially recycled. Clearly this proto-stainless steel technology did not carry on, the traditions didn't grow beyond kinship ties, guilds, etc. Also, the manuscript refers to rusakhtaj, which is corroborative evidence that differential treatments were applied at this particular site. So the sample might be small, but it's been shown that it's unlikely a 'unintended combination'.
     
  15. Musekatcher

    Musekatcher Friend of Leo's

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    Yea, but knowing what we know, the holders of purses probably suffered thru the babbling of then engineers and scientists, shrugged, and replied "yea, but where's my next load of bronze? Can't you produce some cheaper bronze, and quicker?"
     
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  16. BorderRadio

    BorderRadio Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    Ah yeah, perhaps, but that's more a post-industrialization mindset. Not that good steel didn't usher that stage in, eventually.

    Those were days of alchemy, and access to any kind of knowledge at that time was limited. To what extent were these tools used? Who made them? Why did the practice of adding chromite sand stop or decline?

    One telling part of the manuscript is that blades from the site were brittle. I don't want a brittle blade. "Hey Tekish, I wouldn't buy from Chahak anymore, cost me an eye..."
     
  17. jvin248

    jvin248 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Civilization is older than the history books think it is.
    A unified global civilization.
    Many of the megalithic sites, that would more likely have advanced materials, are under water ... similar neolithic structures as shown in the video here have been found underwater around the globe ... when water was locked up in the glaciers, cities and industry would be down lower by the shore just like today.

     
  18. BorderRadio

    BorderRadio Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    Oh boy. At best this is a fun discussion for coffee tables and bars, at worse complete falsehood conspiracy fodder. A talking YouTube head is glossing over decades of chronometric, stratigraphic, genetic, and linguistic data that suggest what is best understood today.

    Besides, this 'civilization' paradigm is fuzzy to begin with. What definition are we using here? What criteria? By the way, I suffer no feelings of superiority at my lucky happenstance to be born in the current era. Smart people exist now, and existed back then, average, etc. It's false to think humans have come so far in understanding and are therefore better than past peoples. Past people put a lot of effort into creating megalithic sites for reasons important to them (even now). Because many people over wide stretches of time and place thought to do so does not make for an ancient 'one government, one religion, one state civilization' hidden by the 'conspiracy' of text book makers :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2020
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  19. tamer_of_banthas

    tamer_of_banthas Tele-Holic

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    pretty cool
     
  20. pixeljammer

    pixeljammer Tele-Meister Silver Supporter

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