Aerobic/ Anaerobic athletes

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by That Cal Webway, Jun 19, 2021.

  1. That Cal Webway

    That Cal Webway Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    For over 45 years an avid runner and serious cyclist.
    Competed from my late teens too early 30s in middle distance running 5k-half marathons, and was pretty good. 5:20 to sub 6:00 times.

    Back then and decades later now,
    when running up a steep hill or sprinting at length, I'm fairly in shape when hitting a semi-anaerobic threshold...
    BUT, there's like this huge anxiety thing in "my blood" and it's not psychological origins, it's physiological: I love to run and I don't dread at all challenges of steep hills or anything else.
    Same thing, going back decades ago too.

    My question is:
    is this somewhat common,
    and is it related to lactic acid and that whole anaerobic thing on the cellular level??

    I definitely like to challenge myself with steep hills and some of them are half a mile long.



    Thanks!
     
  2. hepular

    hepular Tele-Afflicted

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    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/16/... told that they,muscles, forcing them to stop.

    BUT high intensity effort requires a huge boost in mitochondrial processing of lactate.

    it's hard to tell from your description, but it sounds like you hit those efforts ABOVE threshold, which means that you blow up once you've exhausted your Anaerobic energy supplies.

    do you have a powermeter for bike? most experienced aerobic athletes are really good at gauging threshold and subthreshold efforts. But for the stuff over th, neither heartrate nor RPE work so well because people tend to go out WAY too hard because it's really difficult to tell the difference between an 800watt effort from a 500watt effort. Heart rate lags behind too much . . .

    Might wanna look around Joe Friel's stuff if you're not familiar: https://www.amazon.com/Joe-Friel/e/B001JP0ANM?ref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

    (I raced from 2002 to 2015ish & averaged 9k miles/year on the bike from 2000 to 2019. Trained with some sorta power meter from 2008 on. Then got kinda sick of it. I blame Zwift.)
     
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  3. That Cal Webway

    That Cal Webway Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I don't use the bike anymore; 20 years ago I was hit by a blue hair riding to work.

    Well, this happens on hills I'm conditioned for (I think!!) that I'm not really throwing something new in,
    and like I said it has been happening for almost 5 decades.

    Yeah we're talking on the mitochondria level and all; the sodium-potassium exchanges and whatever the lactic acid is doing... shooting Krebs cycle to death, hahaha!!

    I don't know maybe I should try the hills twice a week instead of once:
    Been doing them since last fall and gotten much better and all.
    Otherwise where I live and run the other times it's fairly flat.


    I guess too my overriding question is, with anaerobic effort going into that Red Zone, does it kind of trigger chemically that anxious feeling for most people,
    Not just the dead muscle feeling and inability to be sharp physically??

    Tanx
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
  4. MojoTrwall

    MojoTrwall Tele-Holic

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    If I understand well, you're more confortable in anaerobic situation ?

    That's my case too, I can't stand long aerobic cession, I'm more confortable in shorter high anaerobic situation.

    I don't like containing myself it explain.
     
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  5. hepular

    hepular Tele-Afflicted

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    can only speak for me: depends. on whether i think i can make it to the goal at that effort level. if yes, i find that exciting. if no, dread, doom, deep-dark depression, excessive misery.


    https://www.outsideonline.com/2413011/running-power-meter-comparison-study
     
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  6. davidzferret

    davidzferret TDPRI Member

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    hepular got me thinking -

    I know you said in your original post that you're pretty sure it's physiological not psychological.

    I'm not so sure it's all at that sub-cellular level, although of course CO2 levels, blood sugar, and other factors affect outlook and are changed by anaerobic exertion.

    In my day job which is in mental health I've come across a lot of people - especially first responders - who early on in their working life react to major challenges with a determination to beat the challenge - they feel bigger than the challenge, they expect to win.

    But later, and especially after a major incident, some come to react to same type of situation by expecting the challenge to be bigger than them. Unconsciously think they may lose, which equals apprehension / fear. By unconscious I mean it's not coming from a conscious calculation of the odds, which may be fine, if anything they are more experienced so the odds of winning should be better.

    The closest I've personally come to a panic attack was when I had been banged up in a road accident. Was physically immobilised then restricted for over three months, so major loss of condition and muscle wastage. I'd been walking increasing distances and doing my physio. Finally allowed to take the brace off and felt ready to start jogging. After only half a lap of the oval felt done in - physical resources way short of what the task required. The fact that I only had to stop running and walk slowly home didn't enter into it, I was quite fearful.

    There are also folk who when facing a challenge can 'flip' from angry to anxious or vice versa, and not know why.
     
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  7. That Cal Webway

    That Cal Webway Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Really good post, and to think of it- every post has been to my initial one!
    Thank you everyone.

    I get feeling that way when I encounter an anaerobic situation I should be used to, as far as anxiety and slight doom.
    Lord, I've been doing this since 1972!!

    And like I say-- I like the challenge of the harder physical stuff.


    That's really good bringing up about First Responders.
    I'm a retired RN and worked ER and even inpatient psych, where in both settings adrenaline is your fuel and you're thinking is so acute and clear, that fear and panic are somehow pushed aside...

    Until later you're so wasted/ fatigued or whatever.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
  8. That Cal Webway

    That Cal Webway Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I'm your typical thinner distance runner type, not Mr. muscle mass.

    I like aerobic activity, steady-state but I also like to throw in flirting with the anaerobic, the real challenges of steep hills or whatever.


    And ultimately when I'm done it's very cleansing and gratifying.

    Just during the effort at times it brings on that anxiety in the middle of a climb or whatever- where I'm nearing 3/4 or more of maxing out.

    .
     
  9. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

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    First off, when is the last time you did a proper VOmax stress test on a treadmill hooked up to an EKG? I would suggest that first. The other thing to do if you like to challenge yourself in the hills is to take one day a week for interval training on a track. This will give you the biggest bang for your buck and spice up your training regimen.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  10. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

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    I edited my comment to “interval” training. Dang autospell.
     
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  11. hepular

    hepular Tele-Afflicted

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    well . . . when you put it that way . . . I did nothing but structured training for years: y'know, pretty much every block of every ride for every block prescribed ahead of time.

    the dread would build all week for some of those.

    sounds like you've been doing unstructured anaerobic intervals thrown into likely threshold level efforts. Max anyone's got anaerobic is about 8 minutes. & if somewhere way back when you had a distressing experience related to these sorts of efforts, it's gonna come back out. ANYWAY. if you feel compelled to do such a thing, break it up. 30 seconds on but way freakin' harder than you'd do. then 3 minutes off. REALLY, ACTUALLY recover. Then go again like you stole somethin'. For 30 seconds. Maybe do 3 repeats at first.

    https://www.triathlete.com/training/checking-your-intensity/

    The guy interviewed ABSOLUTELY knows his stuff.
     
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  12. lee2112

    lee2112 TDPRI Member

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    I'm guessing I'm a couple of years younger but now 40+ years of running. I was probably slightly faster during my prime but basically we've done the same many years of high intensity training/racing and were locally and regionally pretty competitive runners. I don't have any answers for you other than to say stuff changes. I know in my later 50's I'm finding I get a lot of different sensations than I remember when I was younger. I'm also finding running really cycles a lot with streaks of good days and days I just want to quit.

    Your body could be responding to going anaerobic differently then it did before and now you may also be prone to a "what the hell is this" mental response adding some adrenaline no doubt making the whole cycle worse.

    We do all know our capacities will diminish over time, right? :) Honestly, I'm still having a hard time accepting that I'm now on BP meds. A lifetime of running, cycling and swimming was supposed to guarantee me to live forever!
     
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  13. davidzferret

    davidzferret TDPRI Member

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    Not really trained hard since college, but always have done some fairly physical outdoor stuff and my recovery times get longer and my endurance shorter with age, I've lived in the same place for about 14 years and the rides and hikes are the same but now I'll be noticeably more tired the next day. Ditto on the BP meds, sadly.

    I feel great when I've completed my resistance training but next time it's due I can feel the urge to avoid, and there is a hint of anxiety in the mix.

    Seems to me that many musos have this pre-challenge / post challenge experience with live performance. Feeling nervous, toey and a bit off balance before the first song, getting into stride by song two or three, and if it goes well, feeling great afterwards.
     
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  14. That Cal Webway

    That Cal Webway Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    At almost 67 years old I guess I have no reason for a VO2 max now of course. Especially I just run for myself three times a week, no competing.
    After age 40 vo2 max can drop quite a bit each decade more or less.
    Periodic EKGs at my doctor's office per checkups.

    (I think when I was in my mid twenties in cycling studies at Ball State University my VO2 max was 78%).

    Next week I plan to hit the hills twice a week now instead of once or every 5 days.

    Thank you everyone great input.

    .
     
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  15. hepular

    hepular Tele-Afflicted

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    So, I'm watching the livestream of Tulsa Tough last weekend, watching the Pro1,2 racers (the next-to-highest category in bike racing) & Frankie Andreu calls out that Chris Carlson of Richardson Bike Mart has taken over the chase. The next lap, Frankie points out what I tweeted to him (since I spent the 2010 TX master state championship crit glued to Chris's wheel for an hour) that Chris is 58.

    Tina Pic and Christina Gokey-Smith are racing women's pros in their mid-50s.
     
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  16. That Cal Webway

    That Cal Webway Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    You may not have seen it,
    but I had posted that this has been going on for as long as I've been in a runner or when I used to cycle, almost 50 years.

    My aerobic anaerobic capabilities of course drop like anyone as they age.

    But still through aerobic /anaerobic activity I should be used to,
    I still get that anxiety feeling with sub maximal effort.


    As several people have said above I probably need to do more of a structured intensity workout, gradually over the next few months.

    More systematic... short of taking my blood to study the lactic acid levels hahaha!!

    .
     
  17. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

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    Fundamentally, from your initial statement, it seems to me that a stress test might be a safe prudent thing to do at this point. A regular EKG might not present potential issues that your body is going through at this age. I don’t want to alarm you, but just a thought. As you correctly mentioned, your VOmax diminishes as we age and perhaps that is what you are sensing. As you must well know, the mind has lots to think about while running. Anyway, keep up the good health and exercise.
     
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  18. That Cal Webway

    That Cal Webway Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I really appreciate your input.
    Ty.
     
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