Advice on prep work when using ColorTone Touch-up Markers.

[Digiplay]

I've got some scratches on my Blonde Tele that has a nitro finish, and I just purchased a ColorTone Touch-up Marker in TV Yellow from StewMac.

The scratches are not down to the ash, and they are about two inches long.


The guitar was polished with MusicNomad Guitar Polish the other day, so I have some questions about the best way to use the markers.

1) Do I need to sand over the areas to remove the polish before touching up the scratches, or should I use some solvent to remove the polish?
2) If so what grit or solvent should I use?
3) Please note that I have some 3M WETORDRY 1000 grit sandpaper, but regardless of whether that's the grit you recommend or not, should I sand wet or dry?


I'm good at painting with small brushes, so I assume it's best to apply the lacquer paint in three or four thin coats.


4) Should I try to have the paint level with the guitar surface, or fill the scratches a little higher?
5) Should I sand over the repaired areas when dry, and if so, what grit/grits should I use?



Or.........................................................................................................................


Do none of the above, and just cover the damn scratches?



Jerry

PS
I saw a video where the luthier uses some lacquer retarder applied with an artists brush to fix the scratches, so would that method work better?

 

[Freeman Keller]

Lets see some pictures. I have used the SM fiber tipped pens with mixed results - without seeing your guitar it is hard to give advice.

 

[Digiplay]

Lets see some pictures. I have used the SM fiber tipped pens with mixed results - without seeing your guitar it is hard to give advice.

Hi FK!

I'll take some tonight.

Also, what do you think about the lacquer retarder method shown in the attached video?




Thanks!
Jerry


PS
I like your original reply better

 

[Freeman Keller]

Hi FK!

I'll take some tonight.

Also, what do you think about the lacquer retarder method shown in the attached video?

Thanks!
Jerry


PS
I like your original reply better

Never tried the retarder. One thing to be really sure of before you go much farther is that your guitar really is nitrocellulose lacquer. Very few mass produced guitars today are, most are some sort of catalyzed something. Some of these are called lacquer but won't react the same as nitro.

To test take a tuner off or find a spot in a cavity where there is some overspray. Put a drop of lacquer thinner or nail polish remover on the finish - if it softens its nitro. Poly-stuff won't soften.

In my previous post I was making a lot of assumption - when I see your pictures I'll have a much better idea of what we are dealing with.

 

[Digiplay]

Here's Johnny!!!!

 

[Freeman Keller]

That is drop fillable, but whether it will look better or not is hard to say. First, does the TV yellow match the color? If not it will really stand out. Second, have you determined if it really nitro? I have had less than stellar luck trying to drop fill and repair modern finishes and if it is a modern catalyzed finish I want to use colored CA instead of lacquer.

If you want to go ahead, here is how I would approach it. When you press the tip of the SM pens lacquer is fed out thru the fibers. Your goal is to fill the scratches with successive applications, let each one dry thoroughly before applying more. The idea is to get the fill slightly proud of the surface. Let it dry for a couple of days, then take a razor blade or box cutter blade and fold cellophane (Scotch) tape over the blade on each end leaving may 1/4 inch in the middle, You can use that as a scraper to level the fill back down with the surface. Be extremely careful, particularly with the ends of the blade (a single edge razor is better than a box cutter). Once it is level then lightly sand with wet and dry paper (wet) - I would start at maybe 600 and go up to at least 1500. Again, the idea is to level the fill without doing any damage to the rest of the guitar. Finally polish it with automobile polishing compound (without silicon or wax) using a foam buffing pad in an electric drill.

You can do it, whether it will be better I don't know, remember that guitars that get used and played and loved get dinged.

 

[Digiplay]

I truly appreciate the way you are helping me FK, I really do!



When I contacted StewMac originally, I sent them some photos of the guitar, and they thought TV Yellow was the closest color to it, but if not, here is my backup plan should the color be too far off


I also ordered some ColorTone White Vinyl Sealer (if you look closely you will see where I sanded the the finish down too much to expose an original white primer, and StewMac said the guitar appeared to have a white vinyl sealer), and some ColorTone Nitro Spray in TV Yellow.



So I'm willing to disassemble the body and put some thin coats on it, but as a quick aside, should I fill the scratches with the vinyl primer before using the marker?



Regardless, I need/have a few clarifications/questions about the original/unedited reply you first gave me.


You mentioned Naptha. Will cigarette lighter fluid work?


If so, I'll wipe the body down (that's the easy part ), but should I then lightly wet sand the entire body with, say, 600, and then spray a few thin coats to cover the original paint color?



Please forgive all these questions FK, but I have learned that a proper preparation is key to a quality outcome, and that applies to more things than just finishing guitars


Thanks again!
Jerry

 

[Freeman Keller]

I've been looking thru my picture archives to see if I have anything that might help - I have done this several times and have before and after pics but its pretty hard to lay the buffer down and pick up the camera in mid stroke. Couldn't really find what I want.

Remember that my first long post I was guessing, I have a much better idea after seeing your pictures. You are correct that Fender probably used some sort of light or white undercoat - at one time it was something they called Fullerplast. I think the white is a good idea. Only you can decide if you are getting the right color match and that is a very difficult thing to do. That is one of the reasons I would try to make the repair as small as possible - you don't want a big bright yellow blob on a different colored background.

My goal would be to fill the scratches with the lacquer from the pen but try not to spread it around the surface and the idea of scraping with the razor blade is to level the fill without lowering the surface (which sanding will do). Try to minimize how invasive your repair is.

Naphtha is white gas, Coleman fuel, lighter fluid. It is the strongest solvent that I know of that is still safe on lacquer. It will remove old wax or silicon or oil from your hands without damaging the old finish.

Also I'm a bit confused. You are talking about "spraying a few thin coats" - I thought you were going to do a drop fill with the lacquer pens. Spraying opens up a whole new can of worms - are you thinking about spraying color, in which case your matching problem is even worse or are you thinking of doing the drop fill with the pens and then spraying clear over that? That is doable but pretty tricky for someone without a lot of experience.

Lets just throw a couple of pictures out there that might help.

First, this is a poly finished guitar that was dropped off a stage onto a gravel road. I drop filled the damaged area with black CA, built it up with several application, then scraped it level, sanded through 1500 and buffed. This is the same process I'm advocating for you only using your pen because you have lacquer instead of poly. If you look at the repair on mine you will see some scratches remaining from the scraping with the razor blade. The little light spots are wood showing thru, in retrospect I should have hit them with black stain before I did the drop fill

If you look carefully at this guitar there is a crack in the finish from the switch hole, the little bright light is sitting right on top of it. This finish was 6 coats of red tinted lacquer with a bunch of clear on top. I masked off the area and shot several coats of red lacquer using an airbrush, followed by some clear. The nice thing about lacquer is that it does melt into previous coats so it sort of becomes on big thick layer (which is why I want you to be certain you have lacquer before you start. When I pulled the tape I had a little layer of new lacquer that needed to be leveled to the old, then it all got buffed

And last was an old guitar with rotten binding. It was finished in lacquer - the original binding was white but over the years the lacquer had aged to a beautiful amber color. I replaced the binding with new white stuff and then used the StewMac lacquer pens in vintage amber to put a coat on just the new binding. Buffed out it isn't perfect but its a heck of a lot better than before

None of those are exactly the same as yours but each has some of the elements.

 

[Digiplay]

Also I'm a bit confused. You are talking about "spraying a few thin coats" - I thought you were going to do a drop fill with the lacquer pens. Spraying opens up a whole new can of worms - are you thinking about spraying color, in which case your matching problem is even worse or are you thinking of doing the drop fill with the pens and then spraying clear over that? That is doable but pretty tricky for someone without a lot of experience.

It's great being helped by a Professional FK, so thank you!


My "plan" ( ) is that after filling the scratches, and the color is not close enough for me to live with, I can then spray paint over the existing color with as many thin coats as necesssary to cover the existing color.


I'm thinking, whether that is good or bad, is that it's easier to paint over a finish that is really close in color, versus trying to spray paint a white color over a dark blue finish.


But as I said FK, the flaw might be in MY THINKING


Jerry

 

[Freeman Keller]

I think that would open a huge can of worms - refinishing or finishing over the top of old finish is just fraught with potential problems. If it was my guitar I would do one of two things - try the minimal drop filling/scraping/sanding/buffing that we talked about earlier and STOP if anything started to go south, or do nothing and play the darn thing. Guitars, particularly electric guitars, get beat up, lots of people devote a lot of time to trying make them look beat up (please don't get me started). I get to see and touch a lot of really wonderful vintage instruments and the little scratches and flaws are part of their character.

I'll add one more thing before I crawl back under my rock. As you can tell, I fix a few broken guitars. I tell people that my goal will be to make it structurally sound and playable, I'll do the best I can with the cosmetics but I can't make any promises. Most people are OK with that.

 

[Digiplay]

I TOTALLY understand what you're saying FK!


Let's talk, in the true definition of talking, one day, as I bet we will hit if off pretty well



Thanks again!
Jerry



PS

As Colombo ALWAYS says...................................

One more thing!


If the drop fill starts to turn out bad for the first scratch, is there a way to undo it?

A way besides using a flat head screwdriver


Please note I'm talking about before I fill the void completely as per your advice.

 

[Freeman Keller]

The ways I can see this going wrong

- the drop fill doesn't adhere to the substrate. That might happen if the old finish is poly - I have not had good luck with mixing lacquer and poly and why I was so anal about that in the first place. If so you can probably remove the fill with your fingernail

- its the wrong color and makes the scratches stand out instead of hides them. About all you can do there is either stop or try to alter the color (lacquer does take very well to being tinted).

- you scratch or abrade the finish more. Thats what the tape on the razor blade is for, why you go up thru the grits

Carry on.

 

[arielg]

I've been looking thru my picture archives to see if I have anything that might help - I have done this several times and have before and after pics but its pretty hard to lay the buffer down and pick up the camera in mid stroke. Couldn't really find what I want.

Remember that my first long post I was guessing, I have a much better idea after seeing your pictures. You are correct that Fender probably used some sort of light or white undercoat - at one time it was something they called Fullerplast. I think the white is a good idea. Only you can decide if you are getting the right color match and that is a very difficult thing to do. That is one of the reasons I would try to make the repair as small as possible - you don't want a big bright yellow blob on a different colored background.

My goal would be to fill the scratches with the lacquer from the pen but try not to spread it around the surface and the idea of scraping with the razor blade is to level the fill without lowering the surface (which sanding will do). Try to minimize how invasive your repair is.

Naphtha is white gas, Coleman fuel, lighter fluid. It is the strongest solvent that I know of that is still safe on lacquer. It will remove old wax or silicon or oil from your hands without damaging the old finish.

Also I'm a bit confused. You are talking about "spraying a few thin coats" - I thought you were going to do a drop fill with the lacquer pens. Spraying opens up a whole new can of worms - are you thinking about spraying color, in which case your matching problem is even worse or are you thinking of doing the drop fill with the pens and then spraying clear over that? That is doable but pretty tricky for someone without a lot of experience.

Lets just throw a couple of pictures out there that might help.

First, this is a poly finished guitar that was dropped off a stage onto a gravel road. I drop filled the damaged area with black CA, built it up with several application, then scraped it level, sanded through 1500 and buffed. This is the same process I'm advocating for you only using your pen because you have lacquer instead of poly. If you look at the repair on mine you will see some scratches remaining from the scraping with the razor blade. The little light spots are wood showing thru, in retrospect I should have hit them with black stain before I did the drop fill

View attachment 712081
View attachment 712082

If you look carefully at this guitar there is a crack in the finish from the switch hole, the little bright light is sitting right on top of it. This finish was 6 coats of red tinted lacquer with a bunch of clear on top. I masked off the area and shot several coats of red lacquer using an airbrush, followed by some clear. The nice thing about lacquer is that it does melt into previous coats so it sort of becomes on big thick layer (which is why I want you to be certain you have lacquer before you start. When I pulled the tape I had a little layer of new lacquer that needed to be leveled to the old, then it all got buffed

View attachment 712085

View attachment 712086

View attachment 712087 View attachment 712088 View attachment 712089

And last was an old guitar with rotten binding. It was finished in lacquer - the original binding was white but over the years the lacquer had aged to a beautiful amber color. I replaced the binding with new white stuff and then used the StewMac lacquer pens in vintage amber to put a coat on just the new binding. Buffed out it isn't perfect but its a heck of a lot better than before

View attachment 712093

View attachment 712092

None of those are exactly the same as yours but each has some of the elements.

How long did you wait before you sanded the protruding lacquer on the 335? I have a Les Paul with a burn through. I bought some amber touch up markers and turns out it was too dark.. Removed it with some q tips and lacquer thinner, and back at square 1. Then, I tried diluting it with clear but, was too light in color.. kept experimenting on scrap, and no matter how many mixes of parts amber and clear, it doesn’t match.. so I decided to get some lemon yellow.. which looks more like what I needed. I’m going to spray it like you did with my airbrush.. just wondering if you waited a few hours or days/weeks. Thanks!

 

[Freeman Keller]

How long did you wait before you sanded the protruding lacquer on the 335? I have a Les Paul with a burn through. I bought some amber touch up markers and turns out it was too dark.. Removed it with some q tips and lacquer thinner, and back at square 1. Then, I tried diluting it with clear but, was too light in color.. kept experimenting on scrap, and no matter how many mixes of parts amber and clear, it doesn’t match.. so I decided to get some lemon yellow.. which looks more like what I needed. I’m going to spray it like you did with my airbrush.. just wondering if you waited a few hours or days/weeks. Thanks!

OK, I saw your PM before I saw this, it now makes a bit more sense.

I let nitro dry for a week or more before wet sanding and buffing. One of our pro finishers claims that some lacquers (Colortone) has naphtha which slows its drying time. He said that pure lacquer can be buffed the next day. I wait however, I use both Colortone and other brands and don't want to screw up a guitar that I've been working on for a long time.

Its hard to recommend on matching amber (I discussed briefly in my PM). The amber on that old Ibanez archtop was from age, I think it was pretty clear when originally finished. I tried to do my best touch up but its not perfect - a whole lot better than before however.

Good luck, sorry about confusion with the PM

 

[stratisfied]

I repaired these splits in a poly finish where the prior owner used oversized tuner screws. The part that amazed me was the prior owner split the finish at every screw and didn't stop after the first one realizing the screws were too large! I used clear Medium CA glue after tinting the exposed wood in the cracks with lacquer (a mix of Mohawk Encore brown and black). I applied the lacquer to the cracks (it shrinks as it dries) and wiped the excess away with lacquer thinner. Once dry, I did a drop fill of each split with CA, scraped sanded and buffed. I do not use the tinted CA as those I have tried use rubber as a colorant and do not buff to a high gloss, though I haven't tried GlueBoost yet.

If your finish is lacquer, you can drop fill the scratches with tinted lacquer, wet sand and buff it out. How close you can match the color will determine how well it turns out. I ideally you would like to shallow fill the scratches with color first and then drop fill with clear to blend into the surrounding finish. That would require some very precise work to attempt to only fill the scratch and leave room for clear lacquer fill-in.

It is possible to do that using thinned tinted lacquer drop filled with a pointed toothpick. Any overflow would have to be carefully wet sanded before applying the clear. It is a very delicate operation compared to working with CA glue on a poly finish which is thick and super hard where your risk of sanding through is minimal.

Also, I see that someone already tried sanding the scratch. That complicates the repair, especially if sanded through the finish down to the wood as it appears.

Verify what kind of finish you have first.

 

[Sea Devil]

It's incredibly hard to match even a simple butterscotch or TV yellow finish, especially if it has a white wash coat, a translucent tint, and then clear. It's worth a try, but there's no way in hell that I'd try to make everything blend in by spraying on more white, then tint, etc. You have a pattern of checking/crazing that, IMO, precludes that approach. It will never match, and the checking is actually quite attractive.

I say hit it with a light touch to blunt the contrast, but resign yourself to the fact that rendering the scars invisible is a nearly impossible task. Don't even try. If you have pets or small children, leave the guitar out, and before long you won't even notice the damage you have now.

 

[Sea Devil]

Again: don't mess with the checking! It's considered very desirable.

 

[N00000dles]

I've been looking thru my picture archives to see if I have anything that might help - I have done this several times and have before and after pics but its pretty hard to lay the buffer down and pick up the camera in mid stroke. Couldn't really find what I want.

Remember that my first long post I was guessing, I have a much better idea after seeing your pictures. You are correct that Fender probably used some sort of light or white undercoat - at one time it was something they called Fullerplast. I think the white is a good idea. Only you can decide if you are getting the right color match and that is a very difficult thing to do. That is one of the reasons I would try to make the repair as small as possible - you don't want a big bright yellow blob on a different colored background.

My goal would be to fill the scratches with the lacquer from the pen but try not to spread it around the surface and the idea of scraping with the razor blade is to level the fill without lowering the surface (which sanding will do). Try to minimize how invasive your repair is.

Naphtha is white gas, Coleman fuel, lighter fluid. It is the strongest solvent that I know of that is still safe on lacquer. It will remove old wax or silicon or oil from your hands without damaging the old finish.

Also I'm a bit confused. You are talking about "spraying a few thin coats" - I thought you were going to do a drop fill with the lacquer pens. Spraying opens up a whole new can of worms - are you thinking about spraying color, in which case your matching problem is even worse or are you thinking of doing the drop fill with the pens and then spraying clear over that? That is doable but pretty tricky for someone without a lot of experience.

Lets just throw a couple of pictures out there that might help.

First, this is a poly finished guitar that was dropped off a stage onto a gravel road. I drop filled the damaged area with black CA, built it up with several application, then scraped it level, sanded through 1500 and buffed. This is the same process I'm advocating for you only using your pen because you have lacquer instead of poly. If you look at the repair on mine you will see some scratches remaining from the scraping with the razor blade. The little light spots are wood showing thru, in retrospect I should have hit them with black stain before I did the drop fill

View attachment 712081
View attachment 712082

If you look carefully at this guitar there is a crack in the finish from the switch hole, the little bright light is sitting right on top of it. This finish was 6 coats of red tinted lacquer with a bunch of clear on top. I masked off the area and shot several coats of red lacquer using an airbrush, followed by some clear. The nice thing about lacquer is that it does melt into previous coats so it sort of becomes on big thick layer (which is why I want you to be certain you have lacquer before you start. When I pulled the tape I had a little layer of new lacquer that needed to be leveled to the old, then it all got buffed

View attachment 712085

View attachment 712086

View attachment 712087 View attachment 712088 View attachment 712089

And last was an old guitar with rotten binding. It was finished in lacquer - the original binding was white but over the years the lacquer had aged to a beautiful amber color. I replaced the binding with new white stuff and then used the StewMac lacquer pens in vintage amber to put a coat on just the new binding. Buffed out it isn't perfect but its a heck of a lot better than before

View attachment 712093

View attachment 712092

None of those are exactly the same as yours but each has some of the elements.

Hi FK,

I’m curious how you would clean, if you would clean, this area before filling with a color tone marker

Nick

 

[Freeman Keller]

Hi FK,

I’m curious how you would clean, if you would clean, this area before filling with a color tone marker

Nick

My assumption is that we are talking about a crack in catalyzed finish over the binding. I would probably just put a tint drop of water thin CA on the crack with a something like a fine piece of wire (maybe a cutoff guitar string) and let it wick in. Very lightly scrape that with a box cutter blade and possibly strip sand it, then buff. It looks like a very minor flaw and I would be more interested in trying to stabilize it rather than hide it.

I'll add that since the original thread and post I am doing less and less finish repairs. It is darn hard to get good drop fill on catalyzed finish and I'm increasingly not happy with the results. I guess I feel that its such a hassle and someone else can deal with it.

 

[N00000dles]

Thanks for the reply. It's a nitro finish, so was planning on using a color tone marker.
But to clarify, it's a large chip. just wasn't sure if you had suggestions on prepping he area.

thanks agin