Acoustasonic "mahogany" neck issues

[fmorelli]

In a matter of six weeks, we've now had two Fender Acoustasonics come in with bad truss rods. They work fine (threads) but do not alter the neck relief. We are coming to the conclusion that the standard fender-style single action truss rod (anchor/washer at ends of a rod) are compressing the softer wood of these necks (versus hard maple, which does not exhibit this issue). Has anyone else experienced this? The two guitars, under tension, have had between 0.010" to 0.015" relief @ 6th, under tension with 10's. Even using a special clamp jig we have, to counter bow the neck and adjust the truss rod, has no effect (as if the anchor just compressed its way through the neck) - once we relieve the clamp jig with truss rod tightened, we are right back to the same relief.

Given what we are seeing, I am gun shy about recommending replacement tele-style mahogany necks (e.g., WD Music has a licensed Mahogany neck) since I believe the issue is design/materials related. I'm apt to recommend to the owners that they move to a maple neck. Of course both guitars are outside of Fender's very generous 2-year warranty.

Thoughts? Feedback? Experiences? Thanks!

 

[Blues Twanger]

Were they recent years? Fender has had a bad run with oddball QC issues, perhaps something or someone on their end is not doing the rod install correctly in the mahogany.

 

[fmorelli]

Were they recent years? Fender has had a bad run with oddball QC issues, perhaps something or someone on their end is not doing the rod install correctly in the mahogany.

Interesting comment. I have not taken one of these necks apart (though that may happen soon, and I'll report back). If our guess is correct, a design change would be needed, such as a different (larger) anchor / washer, or a completely different captured single action rod. My suspicion is that Fender would not go to such efforts, as small as they seem. The first one I looked at was an earlier one. I'll check the s/n on the 2nd one as I have it here.

 

[Blues Twanger]

Interesting comment. I have not taken one of these necks apart (though that may happen soon, and I'll report back). If our guess is correct, a design change would be needed, such as a different (larger) anchor / washer, or a completely different captured single action rod. My suspicion is that Fender would not go to such efforts, as small as they seem. The first one I looked at was an earlier one. I'll check the s/n on the 2nd one as I have it here.

It might not strictly be a design issue. Perhaps because the wood is softer it takes a certain assembly technique or extra care to work with their design, and with turnover and rushed production perhaps adequate time is not being taken not adequate attention given to the hog necks and this means you've now seen two bad ones in quick succession.

 

[fmorelli]

It might not strictly be a design issue. Perhaps because the wood is softer it takes a certain assembly technique or extra care to work with their design, and with turnover and rushed production perhaps adequate time is not being taken not adequate attention given to the hog necks and this means you've now seen two bad ones in quick succession.

It might not be, but that would be my educated guess having worked with these woods for quite some time. Could process sloppiness cause an issue - maybe, but anchor holes and drill size for the washer is done with bits. I won't know until a neck comes apart, which I may do out of curiosity on the current guitar if we swap the owner to a different neck.

My question was more in hopes of hearing from other (like) experiences. Right now I'm inclined to not replace this neck with any other mahogany tele neck with same truss rod design.

 

[Blues Twanger]

Well my sincerest apologies for answering then.

 

[fmorelli]

Well my sincerest apologies for answering then.

Why are you apologizing?

 

[Blues Twanger]

Why are you apologizing?

Seems like you want confirmation that your theory is correct more than discussion of the issue overall. To me it seems more likely a QC issue than a design flaw.

A repairman once said to me that since he only got to see broken guitars he had a skewed idea of how often defects occured.

 

[fmorelli]

Seems like you want confirmation that your theory is correct more than discussion of the issue overall. To me it seems more likely a QC issue than a design flaw.

A repairman once said to me that since he only got to see broken guitars he had a skewed idea of how often defects occured.

I still don't understand given what you just said - was the apology snide or sarcastic and I just missed it?

My last comment before your apology:

"My question was more in hopes of hearing from other (like) experiences. Right now I'm inclined to not replace this neck with any other mahogany tele neck with same truss rod design."

That seems like I want affirmation of my theory? I'm trying to help a client out by not making by spending $$$ on another neck that may have some likelihood of this problem (given I've now seen two in six weeks like this). That's my first priority and why I posted (said it at the beginning, said it at the end of my last post).

Since you mentioned the "repairman's ... skewed ideas", just for clarity I'm coming in on about 50 guitars built (acoustics, hollowbodies, as well as solid bodies - with necks frequently in maple, mahogany, and cedar), and repairs and restorations to a point where I've lost count. As I said before, I won't know for sure unless I decide to pull the neck apart. Glad to speculate and discuss as desired, but at the end of the day, as I said before, I'm hoping to hear from others that may have had this issue since I'm looking to help someone out.

 

[corliss1]

Of course both guitars are outside of Fender's very generous 2-year warranty.

I lold - the drop from "limited lifetime" to 2 years across the board, amps included, is.......something.

Fender, as least in my amp repair shop (as I'm an authorized warranty center) has been quick to respond to any amp issues. They've sent me entire new amps just from taking my word for it. I feel like they'd at least be slightly interested to hear you out. If you have multiples, and you're sure you don't need to hold onto them for warranty purposes, I'd try and gently butcher one to prove the theory.

 

[fmorelli]

Build date on this second one is 5/21.

 

[corliss1]

SO CLOSE

I gotta believe even though it's out of warranty, they might still help if it's only a month or two. Maybe.

 

[fmorelli]

I lold - the drop from "limited lifetime" to 2 years across the board, amps included, is.......something.

Fender, as least in my amp repair shop (as I'm an authorized warranty center) has been quick to respond to any amp issues. They've sent me entire new amps just from taking my word for it. I feel like they'd at least be slightly interested to hear you out. If you have multiples, and you're sure you don't need to hold onto them for warranty purposes, I'd try and gently butcher one to prove the theory.

That's helpful, thanks. I was thinking I'm going to see what my client wishes to do - if he decides to go another neck route, then we can talk about my taking his neck apart (nothing to lose) so I can actually know what's up, solve the problem, and put it back together when I'm done. I just don't want to offer that kind of solution as a "fix", as it's more risky all around. After two, I'm curious enough about what's going on to open it up. Thanks for the feedback, and I'll consider going to Fender if I end up with real facts beyond basic failure reporting.

 

[fmorelli]

SO CLOSE

I gotta believe even though it's out of warranty, they might still help if it's only a month or two. Maybe.

Yeah I know ... on top of the short warranty, both guitars were bought second hand, so no dice on the warranty. I have a sneaky suspicion I know why they were sold - not very playable as is.

 

[philosofriend]

"We are coming to the conclusion that the standard fender-style single action truss rod (anchor/washer at ends of a rod) are compressing the softer wood of these necks."

It could also be caused by the neck not having a proper curve routed in the truss rod channel. In a traditional truss rod the rod is a bit curved in its slot, tightening causes the rod to push up on the middle of the convex upper wood surface of the slot.

 

[Peegoo]

@fmorelli

There are several varieties of mahogany (what the suppliers call mahogany) and some are softer than true mahogany. Compounding this, of lot of the wood being used these days is improperly seasoned between the time it's harvested and milled, and when it's turned into guitar parts.

Back in 2013 I bought a new Gibson CS ES3399. Small-body semi with mahogany neck. It was a very nice guitar, and I played it a lot. At about the 13-month point I removed it from its case and the neck had a serious forward bow--about 3/8" action at the 12th fret. I flipped the guitar over expecting to see an opened-up neck heel joint, but it was fine. And then I saw on the back of the neck, right behind the nut, an inch long lengthwise split in the wood along the grain. I had never seen this before. And I felt sick because the Gibson warranty is 12 months. It was obvious to me the wood behind the D washer under the nut had compressed and failed open. Soft wood? I wanted to heave my guts. This was not an inexpensive guitar.

I called Gibson customer service and they pushed me to the repair department. The tech I spoke with was very interested in seeing the damage even though it was out of warranty. He asked for pics, so I sent them an email. They called back a few days later and requested I return the guitar to them. A few days later I received a call from the guy and he said the neck was unrepairable...so they would be sending me a replacement. And a week later a new 3399 arrived, which was even nicer than the one I had originally cherry-picked. They took good care of me--which is why I'm a Gibson fan.

 

[Pcs264]

Why couldn't this be something other than the mahogany? There are lots companies out there making mahogany necks with truss rods for both acoustic and electric guitars (Martin, Collings, Taylor, Gibson among others).

 

[corliss1]

Sure, but it doesn't mean *this* batch of mahogany was good/properly treated/dried/handled.

 

[Wallaby]

I'm viewing this as a QA issue possibly related to a bad batch ( or two ) of wood, regardless of species. I think it's a Fender problem ultimately.

I think we're all aware of what woods are successfully used for guitars/luthierie, and in most cases for 100's of years.

 

[schmee]

In a matter of six weeks, we've now had two Fender Acoustasonics come in with bad truss rods. They work fine (threads) but do not alter the neck relief. We are coming to the conclusion that the standard fender-style single action truss rod (anchor/washer at ends of a rod) are compressing the softer wood of these necks (versus hard maple, which does not exhibit this issue). Has anyone else experienced this? The two guitars, under tension, have had between 0.010" to 0.015" relief @ 6th, under tension with 10's. Even using a special clamp jig we have, to counter bow the neck and adjust the truss rod, has no effect (as if the anchor just compressed its way through the neck) - once we relieve the clamp jig with truss rod tightened, we are right back to the same relief.

Given what we are seeing, I am gun shy about recommending replacement tele-style mahogany necks (e.g., WD Music has a licensed Mahogany neck) since I believe the issue is design/materials related. I'm apt to recommend to the owners that they move to a maple neck. Of course both guitars are outside of Fender's very generous 2-year warranty.

Thoughts? Feedback? Experiences? Thanks!

I've seen similar to this personally twice in MAPLE Fender necks. One was a brand new EC Strat I bought in 1999, however it was a bit different, the truss rod buzzed and rattled in the neck and would not tighten well enough to stop for long.
Are these necks really mahogany or faux mahogany like Luann?