A "third for a word" and the nature of collaborative songwriting

[Lou Tencodpees]

I recall hearing this expression decades ago, assuming it has origins in Nashville. Its a pretty complex thing, isn't it? On one hand you have the potential of "a word" changing the direction of a composition, unsticking a block in the process, even having an impact on how that word cozies up to the ear. On the other hand, you have the potential of zero impact, someone changing "and" to "but" and claiming collaboration.

Songwriting is such an iterative process. Small ideas can build on each other. But quantifying contributions seems nearly impossible, especially in a room full of egos.

 

[P Thought]

It's a money thing, that's all. No effect for me

A friend of mine helped me with a rhyme one time, got me unstuck on one of the best songs I've ever written. If it ever hits paydirt, I'll happily (I think) give him co-credit, and whatever cut of the money is right. It won't, though

 

[Lou Tencodpees]

I'll happily (I think) give him co-credit, and whatever cut of the money is right

Not that its applicable to your situation, but I can see the "whatever cut of the money is right" being a point of contention.

I have nothing invested in this scenario. I acknowledge my "hobbiest" status. But many years ago I wrote a song that I thought would be good for a female vocalist. That launched a collaboration of songs where I came in with 100% of the musical idea and maybe a title and verse. It really went nowhere, but I've gotten the vibe from my collaborator over the years that the first song I brought in was also a collaboration. It wasn't, it was 100% my creation. I have no desire (or need) to make any assertions at this point. I've been tempted to record my own version, but hesitant to open that can of worms.

Murky business, collaboration.

 

[teletimetx]

Yeah, it can be murky - if you don’t clarify how everything works right up front.

“Getting a vibe” is not clarity. If it bothered you enough to start a thread, there are actual remedies. Like filing for the copyright. If it’s 100% your work, you don’t need anyone’s permission or agreement to file for it.

Of course, if there’s ever any money involved, people might sue anyway - but at least you’ve covered your bases.

Your choice.

I’ve filed copyright applications on a grand total of 14 or so songs. As soon as I reach $100 in sales, I’m gonna buy myself a beer!

 

[Lou Tencodpees]

Like filing for the copyright.

Yeah, I had this tune copyrighted before the subsequent collaboration. As I said, I'm not worried about it nor is it the premise of this thread. I was actually pondering the idea of collaboration and how I have extensive notepad scribblings of song titles, ideas, etc., and imagining myself in a Nashville type scenario where folks are tossing around ideas.

 

[lowatter]

This is a file swap instrumental collaboration with 2 others online ten years ago(with our own TomHB and Gypsyhook)...

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13147380

Loved doing it and thought it came out pretty darn good.

 

[Lou Tencodpees]

This may be a little on the esoteric side, but I've long had a mindset that writing a song feels more like a process of discovery than creation. It may be due to the fact that ideas, melodies, titles, lyrics often come in an almost surreal flash, and then it becomes a quest to peel back the rest. Michelangelo described sculpting as freeing figures from stone. Well, I'm no Michelangelo, but that resonates. The idea of sharing the chisel feels a little like a betrayal to a pre-determined figure waiting in stone.

Its probably faulty thinking, or over-thinking on my part. There are a handful of my friends/musical associates I'd consider collaborating with, if they themselves were open to the idea. But I think I'd still be guarded with those already-conceived ideas and prefer to start from square one.

Anyone else feel this way?

 

[chulaivet1966]

Murky business, collaboration.

Howdy Lou....

Yes....it sure can be and it just complicates my way of doing things.
Although, I do think soliciting collaborations have their place in the creative process if one is having difficulty with some aspect of writing/recording.
Song writing is not easy by any stretch and some are good with lyrics, some good with chord changes and arrangements.

From my perspective, song writing is a very personal endeavor.
I've never solicited anyone for any collaborative song writing effort.
I'm much too particular and focused when considering a song topic and the lyrical imagery.

Once I select a (non cliche) topic I grab the clip board, yellow legal pad and pen get to work fleshing out the story.
I like it very quiet when I'm writing.
Working with anyone else is merely a distraction from my creative thought process.

Hence, I always work alone in this context.
It could take me a few days to a week to get it (music/lyrics) finished up to my satisfaction and ready for the recording process.

I have helped others who have asked me for my assistance but would have no desire to claim any credit.
I do very much enjoy trying to help others getting unstuck with their creative impasse.
If I succeed at that....it's reward enough for me.

I know my place in the song writing arena as none of my catalog (of 50 finished and recorded) would have any main stream appeal.
Song writing is my creative therapy.

Confession: I haven't written anything new in 1.5 years but I do have a couple of topics I've been carrying around in my pea brain.
At 78, I've been dealing with a 'what's the point' frame of mind lately that I haven't shaken off yet.

I'll wish everyone the best outcomes with their song writing goals.

Carry on amigos.

 

[Lou Tencodpees]

Confession: I haven't written anything new in 1.5 years but I do have a couple of topics I've been carrying around in my pea brain.
At 78, I've been dealing with a 'what's the point' frame of mind lately that I haven't shaken off yet.

I'm right there with you, from the dry spell to the "what's the point" angle.

However

Song writing is my creative therapy.

That's as good of an answer as any.

 

[Manual Slim]

This may be a little on the esoteric side, but I've long had a mindset that writing a song feels more like a process of discovery than creation. It may be due to the fact that ideas, melodies, titles, lyrics often come in an almost surreal flash, and then it becomes a quest to peel back the rest. Michelangelo described sculpting as freeing figures from stone. Well, I'm no Michelangelo, but that resonates. The idea of sharing the chisel feels a little like a betrayal to a pre-determined figure waiting in stone.

Its probably faulty thinking, or over-thinking on my part. There are a handful of my friends/musical associates I'd consider collaborating with, if they themselves were open to the idea. But I think I'd still be guarded with those already-conceived ideas and prefer to start from square one.

Anyone else feel this way?

Sounds similar to how I make songs. I hesitate to really call it "writing" because it feels more like they just happen to me, like a shower of messy blobs that I have to clean up a bit. Sometimes I'll leave them pretty sloppy, sometimes I get into the cracks and scrub away the slime to see what's beneath.

 

[PastorJay]

I still play music very occasionally with a couple guys I've known since 1978. We played together professionally in the 80s. And try to do 3 or so gigs a year even though we live in different time zones.

We also send each other music we've written, including sometimes things in process, looking for feedback. A few years ago I sent them a country song I thought was pretty good although the form was kind of weird. The verses were short and the chorus was long, which I think is backwards. Neither one of them responded at all. So I figured it wasn't very good and forgot about it.

Then one sent me a recording he had made of it in which he completely changed the feel of the song by putting it into 6/8 and also changed two or three words. We now perform it with him on lead vocals when we play together. I definitely consider him an equal co-writer, even if he only changed two words, because he made the song better.

 

[catdaddy]

Sixty years ago a new kid moved into my high school district. We became instant friends when we discovered our mutual interest in playing guitar. He suggested we try writing a song, which we did and had a blast doing it. It was a genuine 50/50 collaboration. We decided in our deluded, youthful enthusiasm that we were to be the next Lennon-McCartney, and so we agreed that for anything we wrote in the future we would share the credit. We started our own band and wrote all of our own material. Funny though, we never really collaborated on any more songs, just wrote them on our own, yet when we copyrighted them we stuck with our original agreement to share the writing credit. Yes, songwriting collaboration can be a convoluted and confusing endeavor, for sure.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . Song writing is my creative therapy. . . .

Heh heh. Glad it's doing it for you! As someone who's squandered way too much time and money on way too many therapists, I can happily say that for me, songwriting is the opposite of therapy.

It's not a way to get into myself. It's a way to get out of myself. To escape this veil of tears, this slough of despond, this valley of sorrow, and just enterain myself. And when it entertains someone else, too, so much the better.

Carry on amigos.

Absolutely! Back atcha!

 

[Ed Driscoll]

Rick Beato talked about that in a recent interview. A superstar artist makes a few changes to lyrics written by professional songwriters, and he or she gets a credit and a share of the royalties:



Beato writes it off as the price a songwriter has to be willing to pay to sell a song to a famous artist. In a way, it's a complete inversion of the 1950s, when someone like Alan Freed could get a song on the air, but the price was his being listed as one the songwriters, as happened with Chuck Berry's breakthrough, "Maybellene."