A funny twist of irony for the EV haters - city bus & fire truck content.

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MickM

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This topic seems to be more provocative these days than informative or mind-opening.
I think a lot of that is due to the powers that be (not here) not allowing an open and free discussion and shutting down those who have differing views than those controlling the flow of information in the news and social media.
When I woke up and looked outside I was once again relieved that the sky had not yet fallen but I don't expect that it will because I didn't get bonked by an acorn.
 

imwjl

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If find the psychology of it all separately interesting, even though I don't have a good understanding of it.
Yes, the fascination is in part from seeing challenges I have to face in my professional work.
This topic seems to be more provocative these days than informative or mind-opening.
See the above but I also try to make a sincere effort to share knowledge. I've said in all this how I was thrown into the learning as the appointed skeptic.
I think a lot of that is due to the powers that be (not here) not allowing an open and free discussion and shutting down those who have differing views than those controlling the flow of information in the news and social media.
When I woke up and looked outside I was once again relieved that the sky had not yet fallen but I don't expect that it will because I didn't get bonked by an acorn.
No one's shut down dialog in my area - USA. I attend public hearings and news media frequents where I work. I subscribe to competing newspapers and services. If something seems shut down it is more likely a personal matter and a misunderstanding of business and law.
Ummm, yeah. Zero emissions? Where do people think the electricity comes from? Unicorns? Electrical distribution grids are already stretched thin and vulnerable, adding millions of EV charging stations is not sustainable. Sorry, just sayin'.

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If that is a local photo, you need to remember the world is bigger than Maine where you evidently life. Where I manage enterprise infrastructure we have the whole enterprise in renewable energy from 3 different utilities. It is only our location near a port that would look like your photo and as said, we have it on renewables.

Your post is also off base because a lot of studies show we still have an overall net benefit with these changes if you are not like my location where the hill 3 blocks away exposes the wind farm, solar farm, and manure digester.

We don't have any wells or mining for oil, gas or coal near us. One of our corporate locations has off grid car charging _and_ electrical storage. Can you explain why we should be foolish about energy just because we don't live by you?
 

Blrfl

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But skepticism and denial are different things. Lots of these threads involve people inventing reasons why an EV can never work.

Skepticism is healthy, The difference between that and denial is willingness to change your mind based on new evidence.

I've been around the Internet since the mid-1980s, long before most people knew it existed. Lots of people, including one who should have known better, made lots of predictions about what would never work. Stoll got a couple of things right in that column, but most of what he dismissed as not-gonna-happen... happened. We solved the problems well-enough that I can dig a general-purpose computer out of my pocket, read the news that an interesting product has been released, order one and have it delivered to my door, all while standing on the beach.

The problem I have with the deniers is that few of them are willing to admit that what they're actually saying is "<Insert Nationality here> are too dumb to solve problems" when the evidence says otherwise.
 

fjblair

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There's a whole bunch of variables with buses which determine their handling capabilities in normal and winter conditions ie, whether they're a puller or a pusher, whether they have automatic or hard chains in use, etc. Having a giant battery array over a rear mounted engine might help but sort of doubtful.
Yeah I doubt the fact that the motor is electric has much, if anything to do with it.
 

ChicknPickn

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I think a lot of that is due to the powers that be (not here) not allowing an open and free discussion and shutting down those who have differing views than those controlling the flow of information in the news and social media.
When I woke up and looked outside I was once again relieved that the sky had not yet fallen but I don't expect that it will because I didn't get bonked by an acorn.
Yes. People whose opinions are deemed acceptable have no reason - - and no way - - to know that suppression is real. History shows this applies to art, science, literature, music, and a world of other things.
 
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imwjl

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And there it is in a nutshell. Those who control the flow of information decide whose and what opinions are acceptable.
That is a point of managing cognitive biases, and awareness of things our brains do in conscious and subconscious behavior. It hasn't been any different with my work and travel in very different places and governance across different continents, and over decades.

If we move into social relativism I'll need a cup of coffee first LOL.

:)
Careful........the machines are taking over.
You're maybe 200 or more years late with your assessment. I'm pretty sure the threshing machine was a late 1700s invention. That was also very close to ammonia production that's one of the big pillars most of the world lives on. Telegraph was a bit later. It with the ammonia and mechanization in meat plants and ag machine makers created a revolution in how most of the world lives prior to the automobile becoming such a success or game changer.
 

MickM

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That is a point of managing cognitive biases, and awareness of things our brains do in conscious and subconscious behavior. It hasn't been any different with my work and travel in very different places and governance across different continents, and over decades.

If we move into social relativism I'll need a cup of coffee first LOL.

:)

You're maybe 200 or more years late with your assessment. I'm pretty sure the threshing machine was a late 1700s invention. That was also very close to ammonia production that's one of the big pillars most of the world lives on. Telegraph was a bit later. It with the ammonia and mechanization in meat plants and ag machine makers created a revolution in how most of the world lives prior to the automobile becoming such a success or game changer.
No, that is a point about managing and controlling valid ideas and opinions by the "hurry up we need total EV by tomorrow or we're doomed by the deniers"
Anytime an OP uses the word "Haters" in the title of their new thread they're out to pick a fight. I don't see any Hate in 9 pages: mostly vague assertions akin to "What me and my family did on our summer vacation, and why you should too".
 

teletail

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Ummm, yeah. Zero emissions? Where do people think the electricity comes from? Unicorns? Electrical distribution grids are already stretched thin and vulnerable, adding millions of EV charging stations is not sustainable. Sorry, just sayin'.

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Of course it is sustainable. Do you think EV charging is the only thing that is adding to demand? They are expanding wind farms, solar energy, researching new ways to get more life out of batteries and more mileage on a single charge.

Some people will throw up their hands and say something is impossible; other people will roll up their sleeves and figure out how to get things done.

Some people have been saying electric cars won’t work since they were invented. EV sales were up 60% this year. Sorry, it’s coming. Just sayin’
 

bobio

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Of course it is sustainable. Do you think EV charging is the only thing that is adding to demand? They are expanding wind farms, solar energy, researching new ways to get more life out of batteries and more mileage on a single charge.

Some people will throw up their hands and say something is impossible; other people will roll up their sleeves and figure out how to get things done.

Some people have been saying electric cars won’t work since they were invented. EV sales were up 60% this year. Sorry, it’s coming. Just sayin’
Same goes for the naysayer's obsession with Lithium Ion, a technology that is on the way out. EVs powered by Sodium Ion batteries will be hitting the market next year. There are advancements beyond Sodium Ion that are coming within 5 years. There are major players investing a lot of money in the advancement of battery technology.
 

teletail

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Same goes for the naysayer's obsession with Lithium Ion, a technology that is on the way out. EVs powered by Sodium Ion batteries will be hitting the market next year. There are advancements beyond Sodium Ion that are coming within 5 years. There are major players investing a lot of money in the advancement of battery technology.
I'm sure there were lots of people that rejected the gasoline powered car. They are too expensive, too unreliable, no place to get them fixed, hard to get gasoline for, etc, etc, etc. I'll stick with my horse drawn carriage!
 

TheCheapGuitarist

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Best Sammy Hagar solo album ever, in my opinion.

 

Toto'sDad

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There are many people making predictions, that never come true. I can make a prediction offering no support whatsoever and am under no obligation whatsoever to be right!

My prediction:

When EVs are at their peak acceptance level, when the last of the gas, and oil wells are shut in, and the only source of power is electrical, a calamitous discovery will be made about the danger of electrical power dependency. Attorneys all across the land will join hands and be rejoicing singing Halleluiah.
 

Toto'sDad

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When flesh eating zombies have taken over the world and we are all living in mud huts, then you'll wish you had gas powered buses!!
I heard from a friend who knows about this kind of thing, that the first Zombie, was actually just a regular guy who developed a fetish for shocking himself with a cattle prod. He kept installing bigger and bigger transformers and batteries in the thing, until one day he hooked it directly to his 220volt dryer outlet. BOOOOOOMMMM, when he woke up dead, he was starving for a good leg of live human!
 

imwjl

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No, that is a point about managing and controlling valid ideas and opinions by the "hurry up we need total EV by tomorrow or we're doomed by the deniers"
Anytime an OP uses the word "Haters" in the title of their new thread they're out to pick a fight. I don't see any Hate in 9 pages: mostly vague assertions akin to "What me and my family did on our summer vacation, and why you should too".
It was meant as a tease, and with some humor for what actually occurred - the new era vehicles working well.

You may be very much missing where I'm at with all this change at high level, and that anything else was a combo of fun and possibly education. If I agree with someone of great authority and opinion it would be the Smil book I've suggested - a well documented and supported case that both extremes are wrong. @Toto'sDad last post illustrated it. We won't and can't be without the oil wells as was said. You need those if only for the near 400 million tons of ammonia our species makes from oil each year.


You need some math help for your posts to make sense. Again. On a per 100,000 vehicles basis there is a 25 vs 1500+ difference. If you divide the 1500 by 25, we'll probably have some site bandwidth issues with so many more photos of gasoline powered autos burning.
 

Alcohen

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Those newfangled auto-mobiles will never replace the horse and buggy.

Here's a link to an article published in 1930 in the Saturday Evening Post looking back on the industry's development and popular resistance.

https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2017/01/get-horse-americas-skepticism-toward-first-automobiles/

My banker called on me to say: “Winton, I am disappointed in you.”


That riled me, but I held my temper as I asked, “What’s the matter with you?” He bellowed: “There’s nothing the matter with me. It’s you! You’re crazy if you think this fool contraption you’ve been wasting your time on will ever displace the horse.”
 
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