920D caught selling fake PIO caps

Danb541

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It looks like you have to use the link above. It can't be found on the website. Sketchy once again
 

8bit

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It looks like you have to use the link above. It can't be found on the website. Sketchy once again
Yup. Frankly a note and link should be at the very head of their website in big, bold, preferably flashing neon letters. Furthermore they should be sending an email to every single soul on their mailing list explaining the situation and apologizing profusely.

Pretty clear they don't actually care about making this right with their customers and are simply trying to skate by with as little blowback (and money refunded) as possible. Real scummy, pathetic company I'll surely never do business with.
 

Peegoo

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They have this up now. Still not good enough though.

Yes, they do.

However, a person needs to have the link to click on to see the resolution form.

Look at their home page and their product pages: there's no information anywhere about a resolution form. It appears to be a whitewash of the issue on their part.

920-D-Transparency-Vader.jpg


920D knows who bought these. Rather than sit and wait for customers to discover they've been soaked, the proper response would be for 920D to send an email to every customer that bought their improperly described items and inform them they will be receiving the correct part or otherwise be compensated.

They shipped the items; they know which ones were "bad," and they have every customer's contact information. This is how a reputable company responds.
 

willietheweirdo

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These have a whole new level of collectible mojo now... are they still selling them? As long as it sounds the same, would you rather have any old cap in your guitar, or a real, legit, evil piece of history! 😈
 

W.L.Weller

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... excuses about ... bad decisions but has fallen way short of apologizing for defrauding his customers, ripping them off and outright lying. Really inexcusable behavior.
At least the customers received a functional product, fit for purpose?
The real proof of his insincerity is the total lack of any notice posted to the company Website. If it was a truly 'honest' (whatever that means) mistake brought on by layoffs, plagues, and locusts of Biblical proportion, they would post a very prominent notice on their Website to make all customers aware...
Not to tempt the ban hammer, but there's this (or the Vertex re-labeled wah, or a dozen other "relabeling offshore factory product as boutique ______ scams"), and then there's FTX & Sam Bankman-Fried (Bankrun-Fraud?) How much profit is there in fake PIO caps? Probably not billions?

I'm trying to figure out how much profit there is in "real" PIO caps up in post #19. Probably not billions.
This company's owner and his "manager" should like teach a course on how not to respond to a public scandal.
The recent interviews with SBF have made me laugh so, so hard. https://www.wsj.com/articles/sam-bankman-fried-chucks-the-crisis-communications-playbook-11670012155

Anyway, caveat emptor and IDK, don't believe anyone telling you about the "directionality" of an AC signal?
 

Boreas

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The owner of 920D has posted a few responses over on TGP, with excuses about supply chains and bad decisions but has fallen way short of apologizing for defrauding his customers, ripping them off and outright lying. Really inexcusable behavior. A POS for actively making and selling fake PIOs.
I always liked the quality of their moderately overpriced Tele loaded control plates. Should I cut open the Orange Drops that came with them?? I doubt I will do business with them again, but mostly because I make control plates just as nice now for less $$. But I will have to believe the suppliers of my components. "Trust but verify."
 

kbold

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These have a whole new level of collectible mojo now... are they still selling them? As long as it sounds the same, would you rather have any old cap in your guitar, or a real, legit, evil piece of history! 😈
I can see the 2050 Ebay listing now:
"Vintage 2022 Telecaster, with genuine fake 920D PIO capacitors. A true collectors item. Offers will be ignored."
 

willietheweirdo

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I can see the 2050 Ebay listing now:
"Vintage 2022 Telecaster, with genuine fake 920D PIO capacitors. A true collectors item. Offers will be ignored."
I could like... peel back the shrink wrap halfway and install a plexiglass control plate to showcase it. 🔥
 

LowCaster

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Real talk, how hard is it to wind your own caps? Is this within the purview of a hobbyist, or do I need a $750k machine? Because if I can get started with one of those Chinese "Minila Thes" and some zinc foil, then look out, I'm selling "real" $30 tone caps all day. (Real in the sense that I'll make them out of zinc and paper and oil, instead of writing PIO on some shrink wrap. Not real in the sense of "really worth $30" (apart from the fact that you'd be buying a genuine Made In America Toan cap and supporting a genuine Made In America small business))

The only downside I see is that the actual capacitors I'm going to be capable of making are going to have way, way worse QC that the fake real polyester ones. Maybe that's going to be part of my marketing, do you want a "Soft" 22nF (measures 15) or a "Hard" 47nF (measures 75). That might be the other hurdle for me, convincing myself to put the hard sell on a product/concept I don't actually believe in. On the other hand, people do a lot worse in the name of Mammon every day...

I'm talking myself into this right now.
It’s possible to do without much tools. I did a PIO cap as an experiment once, with paper, oil, aluminium foil and shrink wrap. It worked. But it was 327% off from the target value.
 

Si G X

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They were literally banking on the fact that no customer was going to take an X-Acto knife to a $30 capacitator.

They were also banking that unless someone did, nobody would be able to tell.

Which pretty much sums up my thoughts on this. I wonder how many folk over there were saying how much of a difference it made to the tone of their guitar and how it was worth the extra expense before they found out?

Don't mug yourself off people, you can buy good quality capacitors with nice strong legs for very very little money.
 

jman72

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The part that gets me is that they went through the DELIBERATE process of making FAKE caps and selling them as authentic PIO caps (and charged 30 times what they are worth!!). This shows deliberate intent to mislead with the specific purpose of deceiving the customers. This is FRAUD, not some accidental mistake that they can sweep under the rug. So, if you can PROVE that you were defrauded, then they'll do you the favor of refunding your money (AFTER you return the fake caps and wiring harness, by the way). What a load!

And I'm sorry, but it's REALLY hard to believe that an employee just decided on his own to make up these fake caps (for who knows how long) and send them out "for the good of the company" and nobody else (including the owner) knew anything about it. Yeah, right.

I hate thievery just about worse than anything. And purposely re-packaging a $1 cap and selling it for a fake $30 cap is simple theft in my book.
 

backporchmusic

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I went ahead and filled out the form for 2 harnesses I bought that fit their 'recall' list or whatever it was. They were legit purchases, I sent photos of the harnesses and copies of the Reverb receipts, as they asked. Now we'll see how they handle this.

I opted for store credit because I am damn sure not pulling them out of the guitars they are in to ship them back for replacement or refund. More work than it is worth to see if it really is a big difference. I'm just following the process to keep honest people honest and acccountable.
 

ficelles

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I hear the better DSP guys are now capturing the sound of passive RC circuits with different vintage caps in their guitar models. I believe they will also soon be modelling different flavours of snake oil.
 

beyer160

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Very telling to me that it took the literal disassembly of one of these to be able to tell the difference.
This is the real takeaway here. NO ONE could tell the difference by listening to them, they had to SEE it to realize they'd been scammed.

...and the REAL scam was convincing people that magic capacitors made their sweet toanz more better.
 

dsutton24

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It's just so funny, and for so many reasons.

A hundred years ago paper capacitors were used in high voltage circuits. The paper dielectric was impregnated with oil, or more commonly wax to prevent flashover. They were terrible things, and about as durable as a mayfly's lunch.

For what it's worth, the PIO thing is strictly a guitar world construct. The only group that is possibly as gullible are the audiophiles. Despite, perhaps, trillions of words written on the subject, there is still a faction who believe that these awful things have magical properties. This feeds an industry that is determined to satisfy these guys.

And to think these crooks are... crooks. How dare they! Don't they know that we take our mythology seriously? My fake stuff is fake, I'm incensed! Somebody has to pay for my mistakes, and it's not going to be me, no sir!

Grow up, folks. Making an honest buck is hard enough. Spending hard earned money on this kind of nonsense is exactly the reason these guys are in business. They can repackage a ten cent capacitor and sell it for thirty bucks simply because there's a market for this fraudulent stuff, and they do it without any shame. It's a market driven solely by people who will defend their purchase beyond any reason.

Does this make any sense to anyone?
 

Danb541

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It's just so funny, and for so many reasons.

A hundred years ago paper capacitors were used in high voltage circuits. The paper dielectric was impregnated with oil, or more commonly wax to prevent flashover. They were terrible things, and about as durable as a mayfly's lunch.

For what it's worth, the PIO thing is strictly a guitar world construct. The only group that is possibly as gullible are the audiophiles. Despite, perhaps, trillions of words written on the subject, there is still a faction who believe that these awful things have magical properties. This feeds an industry that is determined to satisfy these guys.

And to think these crooks are... crooks. How dare they! Don't they know that we take our mythology seriously? My fake stuff is fake, I'm incensed! Somebody has to pay for my mistakes, and it's not going to be me, no sir!

Grow up, folks. Making an honest buck is hard enough. Spending hard earned money on this kind of nonsense is exactly the reason these guys are in business. They can repackage a ten cent capacitor and sell it for thirty bucks simply because there's a market for this fraudulent stuff, and they do it without any shame. It's a market driven solely by people who will defend their purchase beyond any reason.

Does this make any sense to anyone?
If someone wants to spend $100 on brand X snake oil, give them brand X snake oil, not something else. It’s really that simple.
 




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