920D caught selling fake PIO caps

[teleben]

Hope posting from TGP isn't against the rules here. I'm not on TDPRI much but thought it was worth spreading the word on this issue:

"With genuine paper in oil capacitors"

Customer brought in a 335 type guitar he tried to install an "upgrade" kit in. He gave up when he broke a lead off of one of the capacitors trying to shoehorn the harness through the f-hole. Labeled "PIO". Sure enough, the website says " With genuine paper in oil capacitors, your guitar will...

www.thegearpage.net

 

[BorderRadio]

PIOgate!

I read this on another forum, no TGP for me though. Basically, owner got caught selling fake PIOs and said it was partly a supply chain issue, now it’s Jimmy Darrs fault and his fault alone. Pics of shrink wrapped polyester caps (not my photo):

Kinda can’t feel sorry for folks who spend 28 bucks for a cap. But it’s the principle!

 

[W.L.Weller]

folks who spend 28 bucks for a cap

 

[tele_savales]

Weak.

 

[MickM]

Nothing like "The Loneliest Monk" to get moving into the afternoon! Thanks

 

[TomBrokaw]

Hoo boy! I don't have the time or inclination to read more than a couple pages, but the schadenfreude is delicious. Put them on my list of "will never do business with" although to be fair they were already there by default due to cost.

While I don't condone the fraud he perpetuated, I kind of understand it. If he had done the right thing and said "we don't have those, we can sell you this other cap that sounds very good" and the buyer thinks "gosh, this non-PIO cap sounds just fine/great/as good as PIO", he might have damaged his market for PIO caps going forward.

Very telling to me that it took the literal disassembly of one of these to be able to tell the difference. How many had they sold prior to this and no one knew the difference! So to summarize, I have two takeaways from this:
1. Don't do business with 920D
2. Don't pay any premium at all for PIO caps in your guitar controls

Edit: Read through the thread and the two people at 920D did not, in my opinion, handle this well at all. See takeaway #1 above.

 

[Peegoo]

This has been a thing for at least 20 years. Several respected vendors have been unknowingly burned by it, and a few have willfully engaged in subterfuge (fraud, actually--per FTC regulations).

@W.L.Weller "It's nice work if you can get it."

Dang skippy. I'll be on my yacht if you guys need anything.

 

[Peegoo]

They were literally banking on the fact that no customer was going to take an X-Acto knife to a $30 capacitator.

 

[Danb541]

Fraud.
If you've ever bought anything from 920D I'd be taking a closer look. This deception is no accident and took a little work, had to print shrink wrap and all that. I doubt this is a one time thing.
My personal opinion is a cap is a cap is a cap. The ones I use cost cents, not dollars. That said, a customer should get what they paid for. Over priced or not.

 

[RogerC]

This has been a thing for at least 20 years. Several respected vendors have been unknowingly burned by it, and a few have willfully engaged in subterfuge (fraud, actually--per FTC regulations).

Mind sharing details? I don't have a dog in this fight at all since I've never even heard of the company before, but claims like that really need substantiation.

 

[Peegoo]

Mind sharing details? I don't have a dog in this fight at all since I've never even heard of the company before, but claims like that really need substantiation.

I'm not going to name specific vendors because I'm sure the list will be incomplete and that is not fair to those sellers that made good with their customers.

But for context, here's a discussion from 10 years ago on our sister site My Les Paul:

Mylar 50's Bumble Bee Capacitors, Not Paper In Oil?????

There is a lot of Myth associated with the Bumble Bee Capacitors and the "magic tone" that they produce. In fact many are not even Paper in Oil at all, but Mylar film. I have often wondered about this for many years and have now confirmed it at the Dr. Vintage website. I don't want to mislead...

www.mylespaul.com

 

[teleben]

Mind sharing details? I don't have a dog in this fight at all since I've never even heard of the company before, but claims like that really need substantiation.

Not sure if this is what Peegoo was talking about, but here's an example that was long known even when this was posted in 2010:

Historic Gibson Faux Bumblebee Caps

Out of my 2010 R-8:

www.mylespaul.com

 

[W.L.Weller]

For $30 per, I'll sit and roll up whatever papers, oils, foils, dielectrics...you want.

Bumblebee? Yellow Jacket? Murder Hornet? Sure thing, sirs. There's an 8 week waiting list.

Paper Capacitors

Formerly at least two impregnated paper foils were used. Today mixed dielectrics are used frequently combining the paper with plastic foils

www.doeeet.com

Looks like I need zinc foil? I already have the kraft paper and mineral oil.

 

[monkeybanana]

This guy actually uses old winding machines. Not saying these caps will make you sound better but they are what they are:

Historic Spec Electronic Components

Bumble Bee Caps, Bumblebee, Phone Book Caps, Dime Caps, Cloth WIre, Guitar Tone Caps, Paper-in-Oil, PIO, Repro Capacitors, Repop, Luxe Radio & Musical Instrumen

luxe-radio.com

 

[SixStringSlinger]

Tiny ceramic disc caps are great.

I personally like Orange Drops just because they're big (and so easier to see and handle) and look neat.

But tiny ceramic disc caps are great.

 

[Powdog]

The owner of 920D has posted a few responses over on TGP, with excuses about supply chains and bad decisions but has fallen way short of apologizing for defrauding his customers, ripping them off and outright lying. Really inexcusable behavior. A POS for actively making and selling fake PIOs.

 

[Peegoo]

The owner of 920D has posted a few responses over on TGP, with excuses about supply chains and bad decisions but has fallen way short of apologizing for defrauding his customers, ripping them off and outright lying.

The real proof of his insincerity is the total lack of any notice posted to the company Website.

If it was a truly 'honest' (whatever that means) mistake brought on by layoffs, plagues, and locusts of Biblical proportion, they would post a very prominent notice on their Website to make all customers aware...not just those geeks like us that lurk in guitar message boards.

 

[8bit]

Just read through the TGP thread. Wow. This company's owner and his "manager" should like teach a course on how not to respond to a public scandal. Geeeez. So bad.

 

[W.L.Weller]

Real talk, how hard is it to wind your own caps? Is this within the purview of a hobbyist, or do I need a $750k machine? Because if I can get started with one of those Chinese "Minila Thes" and some zinc foil, then look out, I'm selling "real" $30 tone caps all day. (Real in the sense that I'll make them out of zinc and paper and oil, instead of writing PIO on some shrink wrap. Not real in the sense of "really worth $30" (apart from the fact that you'd be buying a genuine Made In America Toan cap and supporting a genuine Made In America small business))

The only downside I see is that the actual capacitors I'm going to be capable of making are going to have way, way worse QC that the fake real polyester ones. Maybe that's going to be part of my marketing, do you want a "Soft" 22nF (measures 15) or a "Hard" 47nF (measures 75). That might be the other hurdle for me, convincing myself to put the hard sell on a product/concept I don't actually believe in. On the other hand, people do a lot worse in the name of Mammon every day...

I'm talking myself into this right now.

 

[Danb541]

The real proof of his insincerity is the total lack of any notice posted to the company Website.

If it was a truly 'honest' (whatever that means) mistake brought on by layoffs, plagues, and locusts of Biblical proportion, they would post a very prominent notice on their Website to make all customers aware...not just those geeks like us that lurk in guitar message boards.

Capacitor Resolution Form

920dcustom.com

They have this up now. Still not good enough though.