5F2a kit on its way

Lowerleftcoast

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Any of the vintage 5Y3 brands have all worked well for me. Let's see if we can get @Wally to comment on more specific tube recommendations for this SE project.
 

takeitslow

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Hello,
Don't know if someone (like Wally) will comment Lowerleftcoast but if you say than any NOS 5Y3 work well, I'll get whatever comes my way.

In the meantime, here's the craddle finished. I can do the chassis, and after taking it off, I can do the turret depending on my mood😁...

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And here's the wood almost ready too...

image2(9).jpeg


I still have to sand them smooth with 320grit. The two on the left are 0.79" thick (39.37" and 43" long).The two on the right are 0.63" thick (front if TV and back panel) and 49 long... The two lying are leftovers, 0.32" thick that I will surely use for a guitar top someday...

I think I'll go TruOil (or Danish oil) for the cab, the part that looks wet, and probably Tan&Brown for the grillcloth...

image3(4).jpeg


Cheers
 

Michael Smith

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That amp cradle is a work of art! Especially the conversion to turret board holder. I am looking forward to seeing the woodworking on the amp cabinet as much as the chassis wiring. :)
 

takeitslow

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Hi Michael Smith,
Would you believe me if I say that I trust myself so much more for the cab than I do for the chassis wiring?😂
 

Michael Smith

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Hi Michael Smith,
Would you believe me if I say that I trust myself so much more for the cab than I do for the chassis wiring?😂
I used a router with a trammel attachment to route out 4 perfectly round holes for a speaker baffle. I should have used a smaller straight cutting bit, but I didn't have a sharp one in a smaller size.
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takeitslow

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Hello again,
Just to let you know I got one RAYTHEON JAN CRP 5Y3GT NOS and one RCA 6V6GTA 1970s USA Gray Plate NOS from Koray (Nostubestore). For the 12AX7 (or 12AY7) I will probably go new, JJ E83CC Frame Grid as it is still in my "price range". I mean, if I'm not mistaken, I guess that my ears won't probably hear a big difference between those that cost 29$ and NOS Telefunken that are 400. But if you have another suggestion, please say... For any brand in the 20-50$ ranhe or even between some 12AX or 12AY in a 5F2a build...
 

Lowerleftcoast

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I made the suggestion for vintage tubes firstly because vintage 5Y3 tubes are most likely more robust (longer lasting) than the new 5Y3 tubes and sometimes the vintage tube can be found at less or near the same cost. Also, with the exception of the JJ 5Y3, the new production do not drop as much voltage as the vintage tubes. When the voltage is high in these single ended amps, they tend to not sound/respond like the ones that run lower voltages.

Secondly, the vintage 6V6 tube will likely last longer and, with the exception of the JJ 6V6, will endure high current better than modern 6V6. (To my ear, the JJ 6V6 sounds/acts more like a 6L6 so imo you make a move away from the vintage 5F2A sound when a JJ 6V6 is used. I bring this up because of your questions of using "better" resistors and capacitors. The difference in resistors/capacitors may not even be heard. The JJ 6V6 will make a difference. I can't say if the difference would be good or bad. It is too subjective.) Since there is only one 6V6, matching is not an issue and the vintage tube should not be a big price difference.

Ime, many 12AX7* tubes sound different. The vintage ones *might* have an advantage in lasting longer, but I have had new production sound better and vise versa. OMMV.
I don't feel comfortable suggesting a vintage 12AX7 over new production from a sound perspective, reliability perspective, or cost perspective.

*This goes for other 12AY7 and 5751 types as well.
 

takeitslow

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Hello Lowerleftcoast,
In fact, I hope I've followed your advice!😉
You're the one that told me to go NOS for 5y3 and 6v6 (and something like "12A*7 is up to you").
So as there are so many to choose from (Koray told me that he preferred the CBS Hytron Triple Mica 5y3 better for instance but I chose Raytheon because the name was more often pronounced in my readings than CBS Hytron). I really hope I've choosen right...

And the NOS 12aX7 that I find online are rather expensive. So, new should be fine. But even there, as there are a lot to choose from, a lot fo comments like:
"I was pleasantly surprised at it's excellent bass qualities and pronounced mids. Highs were not shrill either. Simply a stellar sounding tube. I can say at least initially they sound fantastic"

but also

"it's brighter and more aggressive than JJ's standard ECC83S is. if you want BRIGHT get this tube....if you want middle of the road get the ECC83S, if you want less bright get the ECC83S gold pin.
GOLD PIN ECC83S=mellow tone, ECC83S neutral tone, E83CC= bright tone".


I also found that

So, on the layout, it's a 12AX7. But I've also read that some use 12AY7 instead because "The most common reason for using a 12AY7 instead of the more common 12AX7 (ECC83) is that the 12AY7 has 45% of the gain of the 12AX7. So about half or 6dB in technical terms. To reduce the front end gain of an overly loud amplifier. Substituting a 12AY7 for a 12AX7 (ECC83) will approximately halve the gain".

That's why I'm also asking for advice here in those statements are true. I'm sure that it all comes down to personnal taste but what is being expected in a 5F2a: mellow tone (ECC83S gold pin) or bright (E83CC) for instance? How was that amp created?
 

Lowerleftcoast

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Ime, 12AX7 Tung-Sol reissue, Mullard, and EH are semi-similar to one another. As V1 in clean Fender amps, (Concert, Deluxe Reverb, Bassman, HRD, and Blues Jr), EH has been the choice by several guitarists in blind testing. Unfortunately, several of the EH, I have had the pleasure to know, have been microphonic right out of the box or soon after. Iirc, Mullard is more consistent than TS. Price is a consideration.

The JJ ECC83 and Ruby 12AX7 are the same tube. (Ruby tests tubes and puts their label on them.) I mention this because many times the 12AX7 Ruby can be found at lower prices than JJ. I use these tubes. They seem to be good work horses. In Fender type amps I don't tend to place them in V1. In high gain amps, I tend to like them in V1, but in blind tests several guitarists still prefer the three mentioned above.

I have had no luck with the Sovtek regular 12AX7. I shy away from them. OMMV.

I suggest buying a couple different tubes and listening for yourself. I am sure you will hear a difference trying JJ vs Mullard/TS/EH in the first gain stage.

TAD is like Ruby. These companies either test tubes or have a special tube request (STR) for the manufacturer to build to their specs. My only experience with TAD... I didn't like a set of their short bottle 6L6. I have read good reports about their tubes, even the short 6L6, so my one experience may mean nothing.

In the 5E3 Deluxe, a 12AY7 is my choice. So for the 5F2A, imo, you will have to find what you like.

From my experience, I liken tubes to be like guitar strings. There are differences from the several manufacturers that you can hear and you may prefer one brand over another. They are not earth shaking differences but we tend to like what we like.

Tubes are all individuals. Their construction can't be identical one tube to the next. Sometimes we hear differences in the same brand/type of tube.

EDIT: I see you have some tube amps in the pictures you have supplied. Perhaps you can borrow tubes from them to hear some differences.
 
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King Fan

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@takeitslow , a few thoughts on tubes for a 5F2a.

First, yes, do 'take it slow' and to start, 'keep it simple.' The amp will work fine with a sturdy JJ 6V6 (or nice modern Electro-Harmonix 6V6) and almost any 12AX7 (for modern make, as an example, I like the Svetlana or the Mullard RI). The only strong advice is to avoid a Sovtek 5Y3, since they don't drop voltage correctly, and yes, if you can, get a NOS 5Y3 (the exact brand doesn't matter to the sound).

Once you have it working well, you can start rolling in 'fancy' tubes. Don't buy a bunch all at once. These little amps are a great place to try out 12AX7s and 6V6s, since with just one of each type, you will really hear them. But NOS 12AX7s and 6V6s can be expensive, so I get the amp working well on proper voltages using modern sturdy tubes and then swap in some NOS tubes. When they were cheap, I might have tried several of each -- but no more.

In my reading, I haven't seen anyone running a 12AY7 in a 5F2a. They are very much the right choice for a 5E3 and several other Fenders, which get rude too fast on AX7 gain, but 5F2a breakup is sweet and heady, so folks seem to want the AX7 in there.

Final note on NOS -- beware of tube reviews online. They're often too specific and too flower-y, like posh wine tastings. "I'm getting road tar, with hints of wild cherry, chicory, and tobacco." IME, while certain types (RCA short plates, say) do have a certain character, there can be a lot of variation tube to tube, and a lot of tubes can sound nice. And what you like depends on your ears, not some random aesthete or tube merchant.
 

takeitslow

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Hello to all,

So, first of all, the 4 pieces of the cab are cut to size and got their final thickness, close to 0.7".
image6(1).jpeg


Just like for a guitar top, I glued two pieces for the "TV front" panel. I'll thickness it and cut to size after the cab's 4 pieces are fingerjointed...
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My dovetail jig having only a "half-blind" fingerjoints, that I used when the cabs were tolexed, I bought a "through box" template that should be within a day or two...

As Lowerleftcoast mentionned, I took a look at the tubes that I got left: a Sovtek 12ax7wb and a JJ ECC83S. But also a EH 12AY7. And I bought a TungSol 12AX7 that's not here yet - because I don't know the shape of my Sovtek and JJ.... And the Raytheon and RCA found their home from Turkia...

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Well, let me show you the beginning and the questions I'm already asking myself...

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I used a square to align the OT and usel my drill press for the new hole. Done!

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And then Lowerleftcoast post #26 came back to my mind and while I was at that, I wanted to drill the "orange X" safety earth connection and within the "red circle" terminal strip. How does it look to you? I mean for me the "orange X" place is not too bad

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My question's regarding the Terminal strip. You can see the cross close to the big circle.

As King Fan posted "Those terminal strips can be handy here or there, but anchoring them to a PT bolt is not best practice -- PT bolts can vibrate loose. There're ways to try to minimize that, but it's why we suggested drilling holes" on the Starting on the Stewmac '59 tweed 15w kit thread, do you think that having two terminal strip standing close could be a problem.

If you take a look at the picture below, I've put some blue tape where I wanted to put a "two prong" terminal strip for the heater voltage
image0(18).jpeg

Or should I just keep the "blue" where it is and move the other one on the other side of the big hole. It's my first amp so before drilling 10 holes, your advice will be welcome. If I got my answer today, I'll drill tomorrow the 3 holes I need and keep on mounting the chassis...

Cheers
 

Michael Smith

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I'm curious how you will drill the safety earth hole in the end of the chassis using a drill press? Unless the "table" on the drill press can be lowered way down. Maybe you should clamp a block of wood on the inside of the chassis prior to drilling to provide some additional support for the metal.
 

Lowerleftcoast

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the "red circle" terminal strip. How does it look to you?
The *orange x* power cord ground area is fine.

(Terminal strips. First let me say I am recommending this based on the voltages the PT manufacturer says will be on the heater secondary. If the voltage comes in within tolerance of 6.3v heaters these resistors would not be needed.)

I envision terminal strip(s) as shown below. Using two terminal strips will keep from having several wires terminating at the pilot lamp.

princeton-chassis-5F2A-moj-htr-resist.png

or one terminal strip

princeton-chassis-5F2A-mojo-htr-resis.png

Place the circuit board and pilot lamp holder in the chassis to make sure the placement of the terminal strip(s) do not foul anything up.

These are not the only choices. For instance a single terminal strip with 4 free terminals could be used to hold the two resistors. The main thing is, the available space has the circuit board placement and the pilot lamp holder to contend with. Think of your choices and make your decision.
EDIT: The length of the resistors need to be considered as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The chassis looks like it will need holes to mount the circuit board.;)
 
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Lowerleftcoast

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I have seen your attention to detail in the pictures you have provided of guitars and woodworking.

In the spirit of learning and in keeping with your skill set/potential, I am suggesting going through a routine that many of us do when starting a new build. It is called the *headphone test*. The PT when powered emits EMF that can be picked up as hum in the OT. Certain orientations and/or distances between the PT and OT can encourage this hum or eliminate it. I think you will find this test illuminating. (As someone who works with pickups and shielding or *humbucking* those pickups with dummy coils etc. you will find the principles familiar. For example, a single coil guitar can display hum but the hum can be reduced or eliminated by simply orienting the guitar 90 degrees in a different direction.)

The test: The PT is secured in the chassis. The PT primary coils will be powered with wall voltage. All of the secondary and other wires from the PT are safely terminated or taped off so they can not short to anything.
The OT is not secured to the chassis so it can be placed in many different locations and orientations. The OT primaries are taped off and the lower ohm taps of the secondary are taped off. Headphones are attached to the two ends of the OT secondary. When the PT is powered, the 50 Hz of the wall voltage can be heard in the headphones when the OT is too close and/or does not have the coils oriented in an optimum way with the PT coil.

Some say this test is more accurate when using a multi-meter instead of headphones. The MM is connected just like the headphones. As the OT/PT orientation changes the MM will show a mV change.

Since this is working with high voltage all safety protocols should be observed.

The 5F2A has a good distance between the PT and OT when they are mounted in the standard orientation so I do not anticipate hum will be detected when the PT and OT are where they normally sit. (The 5E3 has a smaller distance between the PT and OT and on occasion hum will be introduced to the OT.)

This test just eliminates *transformer orientation* as a possible source of hum when your build exhibits hum once it is built.

(and I am sorry if you need to drill new holes to mount the OT differently.)
 

Liriodendron

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I'm curious how you will drill the safety earth hole in the end of the chassis using a drill press? Unless the "table" on the drill press can be lowered way down. Maybe you should clamp a block of wood on the inside of the chassis prior to drilling to provide some additional support for the metal.

Just pistol drill it. There's no need to drill that on a press.
 

takeitslow

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Hello,
Even if I wanted to drill the safety hole with my drill press, I wouldn't have been able to... Too small is my drill press 😁
image7(2).jpeg


Once again, your advice saved me Lowerleftcoast... I installed the pilot lamp holder and the circuit board... I changed the drilling location.
image0(19).jpeg


And it seems that you are also right for the circuit board mounting hioles.... I would also have to drill the chassis for the board too.

If my circuit board mounting holes are those two circled in red...
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Then I could either use the existing one that is circled in red in the chassis (and drill just one)
image4(4).jpg
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Or I could "split my hair in half" so as to give room to the holes on the right of the chassis and so, drill two new holes...
image6(3).jpeg


Let's see what all of you think...

Have a nice day

Cheers
 

Michael Smith

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My 1979 Vibro Champ has it's eyelet board fastened to the chassis with 2 screws, one near each end and centered on the board. You can barely see one screw next to the bias resistor. The other screw can't be seen at all. The other photo shows where the screws come thru the chassis.
P1050505B.jpg
P1050504B.jpg
 
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takeitslow

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Michael Smith, Thanks for these pictures. Funny to see that Mojo gives you a Chassis that has holes you don't need and that therefore needs to be drilled... No "plug and play": even with a kit, you have to think (and not only about how to avoid high voltage)😁

I wanted to edit my previous post to thank Lowerleftcoast for the "headphone test" thing but I'll do it there instead. Thanks! Never thought that this hum thing could happen so clearly as the difference between a single coil and a humbucker pup. I'll test it.

Cheers
 

Michael Smith

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Michael Smith, Thanks for these pictures. Funny to see that Mojo gives you a Chassis that has holes you don't need and that therefore needs to be drilled... No "plug and play": even with a kit, you have to think (and not only about how to avoid high voltage)😁

I wanted to edit my previous post to thank Lowerleftcoast for the "headphone test" thing but I'll do it there instead. Thanks! Never thought that this hum thing could happen so clearly as the difference between a single coil and a humbucker pup. I'll test it.

Cheers
I would drill your eyelet board mounting holes in a place where they don't get covered up by any components like was done in my Vibro Champ. In the unlikely event you ever have to partially lift the eyelet board, you wouldn't have to unsolder anything. When I replaced my bias resistor (to lower the idle plate dissipation), I installed it so the mounting screw is more accessible. As you can see, I also increased the voltage of the bias capacitor.
P1050573.JPG
 
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