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5E3: Why Does One Volume Affect the Other?

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by PumpJockey, Jan 3, 2017.

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  1. PumpJockey

    PumpJockey Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    I have a 5E3 coming and was told that you could vary the breakup on the Bright channel with the volume from the Normal channel.

    True? If so, how come?

    In any event, looking forward to an amp I have wanted for a long time.
     
  2. screamin eagle

    screamin eagle Poster Extraordinaire

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    True. Cause of the way it's wired. Though it's more about the mids than the breakup.
     
  3. tweedman2001

    tweedman2001 Tele-Afflicted

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    Here's some info. My apologies as I'm not sure of the sources other than Gerald Weber.



    "The controls are very interactive and you can get lots of usable tone quickly. I'll give you the basic outline on the amp as it's pretty simple. Facing the back of the amp from left to right is fuse, switch, pilot light, tone, instrument volume, mic volume, hi/lo gain input (hi is the bottom & lo is the top), and the mic inputs (same as the instrument inputs).

    The amp isn't "jumpered" internally, but the controls do work the ground side of the circuit and that's what makes them so interactive. To get maximum drive I tell folks to plug into the hi gain instrument (lower left jack) and turn the instrument volume (middle pot) to the volume you want, then turn the mic volume up to 3 o'clock and you'll hear the drive really kicking in. Past 3 o'clock and the amp cleans up and the volume goes down which is normal and can be used to get some nice clean tones as well. You can do the same with the mic channel and turning up the instrument volume. I've attached a portion from one of Gerald Weber's books that explains the interactive controls pretty well.

    Also, the tone control will seem more like another gain stage than a tone control when using the mic channel. With the instrument channel it has the traditional tone control thing going on. It does seem brighter straight up but that also depends on the pickups you're using, which channel you're in, and where you have the volume pots at. The tone is interactive with the volume pots as well because they all control the ground side of the circuit. If you turn the volume down to about 11 o'clock on the channel you're using you'll see the tone pot changes more to the normal function.

    You can also use a jumper from one channel to the other and get some nice fat tone that way, or use an AB box and do channel switching. "


    Gerald Weber –

    Let’s look at another example, the tweed Deluxe. This amp is very unique because the volume controls are not voltage dividers!! Did you ever wonder why all tweed Deluxes seem to have an audio pot with too fast a taper? The volume control in a tweed Deluxe works by “loading down” the signal coming from the plates of the preamp tubes!

    If you are plugged into the instrument channel, the signal goes backwards through the microphone channel’s volume pot, through the microphone channel’s coupling cap, plate resistor, and filter cap to ground. You will get maximum mids in the instrument channel with the microphone channel’s volume control turned about halfway up. You will get a maximum midrange scoop with the microphone channel’s volume control turned full up. This would work the same if you switched channels and were plugged into the microphone channel and adjusting the instrument channel’s volume.

    This can be used to your advantage, especially if you have an A/B box. Set the normal channel all the way up and the instrument channel halfway up. Use an A/B box to select between the microphone and instrument channels.

    Here’s what will happen: When you select the instrument channel, you will get a fabulous clean tone. Since the instrument volume is turned halfway, you are not really overdriving the instrument channel that hard and since the microphone’s volume control is turned full up, you are scooping out the mids in the instrument channel. This gives you that “better than blackface Twin” clean tone-to die for.

    When you select the microphone channel (which is turned all the way up), you will get a fabulous lead tone. For one thing, you will be overdriving the output stage and because the instrument channel is halfway up, you will be boosting the mids as much as possible. This results in a thick, creamy, cello-like tone with incredible sustain.

    Of course, there are many other settings between the two extremes described earlier that will give very usable tones. This is where experimentation with your guitar, your playing style and listening will reveal the possibilities.
     
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  4. clintj

    clintj Friend of Leo's

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    There's another effect in there as well. The input stages are cathode coupled, so below the filter frequency of the cathode circuit the low bass cancels out as you raise the unused volume. Want to hear it? Leave the unused volume on zero, and start cranking up the opposite volume.
     
  5. keithb7

    keithb7 Poster Extraordinaire

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    The tone knob also works as a gain knob when you have adjusted both volume knobs to yield maximum gain.
    Crank the amp's tone knob to add extra gain. The reason is,
    the tone knob bleeds higher frequencies to ground as you roll down the treble, more and more is sent to ground.
    When the tone is set to max brightness, the knob is pretty much out of the circuit, sending little to no frequencies to
    ground. This yields maximum gain. You have a couple of options if the amp is too bright for your liking. Let the amp
    make all the gain, use your tone knob on your guitar to roll off some highs. You could also try a darker speaker.
    Higher gain pick ups also lose some top end. You could really up the ante with more gain here with higher gain
    pups, and loose some of the bright top end.
     
  6. hotrodkid

    hotrodkid Tele-Afflicted

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    Same with my 5F6A clone. I usually plug into the bright channel, vol 3-4. I then leave the vol on the normal channel at 6. Like somebody said, brings up the mids and just sounds right.
     
  7. King Fan

    King Fan Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

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    Nice! These are some of the most informative responses I've seen to this question.

    A related trick is to plug into one channel and turn it almost all the way down, turn the other channel almost all the way up (like 1/16th turn from full). You can actually get a pretty quiet 'household' setting that is 'clean plus' or 'clean but rich'. Adjusting the inactive channel *up* further at this point will turn the overall volume *down,* while turning the active channel up a little adjusts fullness. Also at these settings the tone knob becomes sort of a presence knob -- down for quiet muted jazz tones, up for some kick and sizzle.
     
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  8. Gibsonsmu

    Gibsonsmu Tele-Holic

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  9. keithb7

    keithb7 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Tonight I am playing clean thru my 5E3. I find the unused channel's volume also works great as a bass control. For example, right now I am plugged into "Instrument" input 1. Tone on 11. Instrument volume just a hair under 2. Mic volume on 11. As I adjust the mic volume up or down around 11, I control the bass. As well the highs are effected. I may compensate the highs to bring them back up. Thickens up the bottom end nicely.
     
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  10. PumpJockey

    PumpJockey Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    Wow.

    Just "wow". I figured there had to be a reason that people raved about these.

    Looks like I have some pleasant experimentation ahead of me. Thanks.
     
  11. keithb7

    keithb7 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Pumpjockey you are in for a real treat. Budget lots of time tweaking and turning all the controls to yield different tones. All are interactive. You will not know
    this amp in a week of playing.
     
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  12. Bristlehound

    Bristlehound Friend of Leo's

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    I've just joined this site due to the wealth of info about the Tweed Deluxe. Yesterday I added the pre-PI master volume mod from this site and it allows full usage of the volume controls at bedroom levels... so a quick "Thank You" to Rob Robinette of this parish for the info.

    I will pop over and introduce myself and then thank Rob in the appropriate place.
     
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  13. Piotr

    Piotr Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    I use both the volume interaction and the tone control to get plenty of clean volume from my 5E3.
    I set the unused channel volume at close to 12 (11-ish) and set the used channel volume to taste (6 or so). I set the tone control at 3. Bright pickups come in handy.
    By the way, there is a fantastic original 5E3 clean telecaster tone clip on YouTube. All controls are at 3 in the clip, with channels patched together.
     
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  14. H. Mac

    H. Mac Friend of Leo's

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    This ^ is good advice. The 5E3 is the quirkiest of the tweed circuits and it takes a lot of patience and experimenting to get to know one. The three knobs and four inputs are only a portion of the 5E3 magic. The controls on your guitar and your playing technique are the other portions.
     
  15. PumpJockey

    PumpJockey Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    The amp is due to arrive today. It was a trade and here are the details from the other party.

    "It's got 6l6s and a SS rectifier for a tighter bass and more headroom. It can run a 6v6s and a tube rectifier too. Vol knobs are push pull and vary the tone circuit. Pushed is lower noise, less overdrive, and less volume. Pulled is true 5e3 tone circuit, which is a higher noise floor, more volume, and more overdrive. It was assembled from a tube depot kit by legendary VA amp tech Van Preddy."

    From the photos the speaker is a Warehouse G12Q.

    Screenshot 2017-01-06 11.42.56.png Screenshot 2017-01-06 11.43.49.png Screenshot 2017-01-06 11.43.31.png Screenshot 2017-01-06 11.43.16.png
     
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  16. vashondan

    vashondan Tele-Holic

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    Handsome looking machine there. I predict a fun filled weekend. Congrats.
     
  17. keithb7

    keithb7 Poster Extraordinaire

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    The G12Q is rated at 20W I think. 2 6L6 power tubes could handily blow that speaker, no?
     
  18. PumpJockey

    PumpJockey Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    I did think of that. I have been playing it through the lower power setting so far, and at household volume. It arrived late today. Tomorrow I'll take off the back panel and scope it out. I can - and maybe will - put in a set of 6v6s and the correct recto tube. Not sure if that will require re-biasing, something I have yet to attempt. I also have an attenuator if needed.

    The point, at least at the beginning, is to get the classic 5e3 sound and that means the stock set-up. The push-pull is regular 5e3 when pulled, lower volume and cleaner when pushed. That's not the classic sound but it sure sounds smooth. 5e3 as a jazz amp??

    Based on an hour or so of playing it sounds good, not at all harsh. You can get a boomy bass out of it but it is correctible. The speaker seems broken in. I ran a delay pedal in front of it to wet it up and that sounds even better. I have a tremolo pedal that might go in front or perhaps my Neo Mini-Vent set to the Leslie speed.
     
  19. PumpJockey

    PumpJockey Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    It's a snowy day here in Outer Suburbia and I have spent the time between shoveling playing the Deluxe. I think I can say I see what all the fuss is about. I have three main axes, all home-brew, a Tele, a Strat and a 72 Deluxe Tele with Alnico II hummers. They all sound great, especially the Strat (which has Lace Emeralds).
     
  20. PumpJockey

    PumpJockey Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    I GOT BLISTERS ON MY FINGERS!
     
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