5E3 or 5F6 crazy requests

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by HuntleyAmps93, Nov 30, 2019.

  1. printer2

    printer2 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Every once in a while in another forum we get musicians that want to build the ultimate guitar amp. Throwing everything in there with the kitchen sink. And being their first amp build they are excited.
     
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  2. radiocaster

    radiocaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    So he wants the sound to come out of just one mono cab? If that's the case, you only need one power amp circuit and several preamp circuits, although I'm not sure why he'd want the clean side jumpered.
     
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  3. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I reread this in radiocaster’s post above. Then...I reread this...


    I believe that there is a communication problem between the two of you and perhaps in this thread. Radiocaster’s observation is to the point. And....fwiw...IF this player is running two heads into one cab simultaneously, then he has to have the speakers in that cab separated from each other with two jacks in order for each speaker to handle one amp each, right? Or...he has something like the Radial device that allows one to switch between heads to run them...independently and separately....into one head. There can be no ‘blending’’ in such a situation, as far as I know. Hence my confusion at your statements/description.

    from your post above...”but this one is just way too far out of my norm it seems.” I agree at this point. In fact, the description of what you understand he has in that two amp rig and how it works is beyond the ‘norm’...as I understand it, at least.
     
  4. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

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    Sounds like a musician stuck in the unfortunate position of craving a "Pro" backline while playing gigs not quite large enough to pay roadies.

    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  5. printer2

    printer2 Poster Extraordinaire

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    I read it as two amps going into their respective speaker in one cabinet. I was going to suggest a roll of duct tape, stack the heads together and go nuts with the tape.
     
  6. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I understand how we want to understand the situati9n because we would never plug two heads into one cab unless we had a device in between the amps and the cab so as to pick which amp will be used. However, here is how the language works in the OP’s post. Huntley wrote: “He has 2 66” Bassman heads that are identical running them through a 2-12 cab.”
    That means exactly what it says....two heads, one cab. The key word that def8nes that situation is the ‘a’ just before 2x12 cab. IF Huntley is not saying what he is meaning, I will observe that communication is key in all endeavors. Imho, there is a strong possibility that Huntley and this fellow are not communicating well. I know from reading here that there is confusion. There can be no progress without accurate communication....understanding of both parties with regard to Huntley and this player and all parties in the case of this thread. I can only know that from WHAT IS WRITTEN here by Huntley that I am confused. I have no firm idea as to how this player runs the rig or what he wants...except that I agree that his dream is bigger than his pocketbook. Yes, I can ignore what has been written and surmise what the player really wants.....but that does not make what I think accurate.
    I do feel certain that IF I were talking to that player, I could suggest he let me take one of those ‘66 Bassman amps and hand him back a single head that will give him the versatility he wants....IF he will go buy an ABY pedal unless he already has one. If that doesn’t work, then I would suggest that he buy a MKIV Boogie...maybe two of them, right?
     
  7. HuntleyAmps93

    HuntleyAmps93 TDPRI Member

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    Sorry if I was unclear on my original post Wally,
    On The back of the 2-12 cab this player has it has ONE 1/4” input jack. He has a device Brand UNKNOWN that he runs one cable out of one 66 head and another cable out of the other 66 head plugging into the “UNKNOWN Y’ing Device” with the results of a single 1/4” end which he then plugs into the 2-12 cab. While not playing the 6 string axe there is a awful 60hz Hum way surpassing any ever heard in the 40s and 50s. But that is exactly what he has I seen it with my very own eyes... but he loves the sound they create together while rocking. He’s using 12 peavy black widows in this closed back cab per him... Its the darndest thing I’ve ever saw. With absolutely no sarcasm intended I hope this better explains what he has and what he wants.
     
  8. corliss1

    corliss1 Friend of Leo's

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    Yeah, we'd need to know the brand of the unknown to see if that is even a correct setup. If it's just an a/b/y pedal, that would not be good the amps. There are amp switchers like that, but they are uncommon and pricey.
     
  9. Crawldaddy

    Crawldaddy Tele-Holic

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    Sounds like your man is referring to the Yamaha THR100HD.

    It does exactly what you describe here.
     
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  10. HuntleyAmps93

    HuntleyAmps93 TDPRI Member

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    Another thing I explained to him that he had to make sure that the impedance on the speaker was right for the heads. Like he didn’t need to be running 8ohms on his heads and his speakers wired 4 ohms etc... I’ll see if I can locate the “unknown”.
     
  11. HuntleyAmps93

    HuntleyAmps93 TDPRI Member

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    THANK YOU!!! I haven’t even heard of that modeling amp before...this is exactly what he wants the only amp I could think of that was close to the Yamaha you mentioned was way back in the day when Kauffman & Fender was first trying to venture off in the Guitar Amplifier world they created a modeling combo amp that had lots of knobs and switches for the players to fool with. But those little dude are extinct... Thanks again Crawldaddy I will strongly suggest he try one of the Yamaha THR100HD.
     
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  12. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I have nothing but observations.
    1) there is to my knowledge no device that will allow two or more amplifier heads to run into one speaker load simultaneously. There is the Radial Headbone that allows a player to switch between two heads while using only one speaker load, but it WILL NOT allow two amps to run simultaneously into that one speaker load.

    https://www.radialeng.com/product/headbone-vt


    2) imho and ime, anyone who works on amps and/or builds amps would, upon seeing a player run two amps into one speaker cab, become immediately very curious as to what is going on. If some player was asking me to work on his amps much less build an amp for him and I knew that the player was running such a ‘rig’, I could not proceed further with any repair work or build work for him until I completely understood how he was utilizing equipment...and the player would also understand what I thought about his said utilization.

    3) Sometimes a player will rig up a situation through which sound can be produced even while that rig is NOT proper. Note: that hum is indicative of a problem. Just because someone rings something up does not mean that the situation should be continued......unless the player can put up with a noise that indicates a problem while thinking that the result is just exactly what is desired. Such situations can lead to equipment failure....and also to innovation and creations that actually address the desired end and the problem caused by the improper rig that an unknowing player has hooked up.
    Randy Bachman of Bachman Turner Overdrive fame used to run a Champ amp directly into the input of a larger amp because henl’liked the sound’. That is an improper usage, and the builder of the Garnet amps that Bachmann used built a proper tool...the Herzog, iirc....which is nothing more than a Champ circuit with a line out built off of the output transformer output leads.

    What your friend wants for an amp can be done....and has been done. What he is doing with two amps should not be done, imho and as I understand your explanation. Take a look at true stereo guitar amp schematics and you will see that each output section must have a separate speaker load. Your friend needs to carry two speaker loads....or he needs to separate the two speakers in that 2x12 cab so that he can plug each amp into a load that is separate from the load of the other amp. He is trying to run a ‘stereo’ situation into one speaker....bad idea.
     
  13. printer2

    printer2 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Hmmm...

    What does happen to the unused amp hooked up to a speaker with another amp? SS forget it. Tube, what is the AC impedance of the output winding of the amp at idle. I'll have to look it up. The NFB loop would obviously take the signal and feed it back to the PI and then amplify that signal again. The same lag in getting the NFB signal and the signal through the output section to add up as if the signal first appears at the PI and the delay is in the NFB signal.

    So would the second amp just follow the signal of the first? Would it actually reduce the load seen by the first amp with half the current supplied by the driving amp and half the 'slave'? I may need some coffee yet to see my error in this. If anyone wants to think this through a little...
     
  14. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Running two audio amps into one speaker load simultaneously is improper. It is asking for damage to one or both amps. the two output sections are improperly linked together.
    As I noted, One would want a switching device to select which amp would be connected to the speaker....but never both at one time. yes...as I also said...people will do all sorts of things, and I have witnessed people who thought that some of the most atrocious sounds were ‘good’. The OP says that there is the loudest hum noise he has encountered...or something like that....when this rig is being used but the player thinks it sounds good.
     
  15. printer2

    printer2 Poster Extraordinaire

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    You know I know better, but I was just theoretically thinking, one of my poor habits.
     
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  16. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Yes, I knew that you were in no danger of hooking up a rig like that. I did some searching and found a lot of ‘don’t do this’, but the closest I got to a technical explanation was that one does NOT want to make the output sections of two audio amplifiers subject to the functions/voltage of each other. All of the ‘don’t do this’ had the same warning....,bad noise will very likely ensue and that one or both of the amps will fail at some point.
     
  17. printer2

    printer2 Poster Extraordinaire

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    But that is with two amps running. With one idling, it might be a different kettle of fish. I might have to ask brighter minds than my own. Nope, thought it through.

    The NFB would be inverted as compared to the other amp's signal. The idle amp will put out a reversed phase signal into the speaker, summing the two amps output together you would cancel out some of the output. the saving grace is that the first amp's output being returned through the other amp's NFB loop gives a smaller signal for the power section to amplify. So when it finally makes it out the transformer it only partly cancels the first amp's output. Did that make any sense?

    Having the two amps running with different signals through them into the same speaker seems down right ugly when you start feeding the result into both amp's NFB loop. Just not a good idea.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019 at 10:43 PM
  18. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

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    The "Ubknown" ls likely a Radial Amp bone. Radial makes a bunch of boxes, Amp Bone, Cab Bone and the JD-7 Injector. They're all pro backline toys that make running multiple amps a lot simpler.
     
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  19. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    ^^^^^as I mentioned in my post #23. Imho, a tech would have been curious enough to know exactly what they saw as an unknown device. The OP’s description of a huge, loud hum made me wonder exactly what was going on.
    However, these posts make me think that the two amps are operating simultaneously. That is something that the Radial Amp Bone or any other device will not allow.

     
  20. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    And....the loud hum is particularly telling. Either an improper arrangement has been established or there is a ground loop in an otherwise proper arrangement. at any rate, based on the dearth of firsthand information as to what is really going on there with that rig. I withdraw from the discussion as I have nothing more to add....other than my curiosity about such a rig, the loud hum, and the player’s stated desire for an amp build would not have allowed me NOT to examine it in detail so I could gain an understanding of what the player is doing.
     
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