5e3 - Coupling Capacitors

[jklotz]

Hi guys. On my 5e3 build, I told David (boothill) I wanted a tad more headroom on my build, and he suggested changing the coupling caps to Orange Drop Polypropylene .02uF. I'm pleased with the amp, and I do seem to have quite a bit of headroom (compared to some 5e3's I've heard), so can't argue with his suggestion.

My question is, what effect would it have to change them out to a different style/value cap? Is it just headroom, or do those change the tonality of the amp? The reason I ask is because the amp sounds great, but maybe just a little sterile sounding (which may be simply that in my condo, it's not often I can get it up to a volume where it really sings)

Thanks!

 

[Gibsonsmu]

The smaller value capacitors tighten up the sound and effectively create more headroom by filtering out a lot of the lower frequencies that the typical .1 would allow through - many of which can cause the speaker to "fart out" particularly at higher volumes. But to answer your question you are altering the harmonic content of your signal vs the standard design. And I have heard orange drops are more sterile but I can't comment there as I have never used them. Think of it like a tunnel that all of the signal would go through. You have created a smaller tunnel by using those caps. Why not change one channel to the original .1 in say a molded cap and see what happens. that's a 5 minute swap and you will have real results

 

[jklotz]

Yea, ok. I'll order some and try it. Any suggestions about which ones to get?

Thanks!

 

[Piotr]

Smaller coupling caps are the way to go in a 5E3, IMHO.

 

[dkevin]

Pretty good advice! I recently recapped a Gibson GA-20 1st version and all the grey Tigers (paper/wax caps) were leaky. I used Orange Drop 715P (.05uf) in the microphone channel and OD 6PS (.05uf) in the instrument channel. The mic channel is grid-leak bias while the inst channel is cathode bias. For the PI I chose 6PS. The amp sounds very good. I have heard others describe this amp as dark and thick with the original caps. The Orange drops sound good to me.

 

[Gibsonsmu]

I've heard good things about these

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/capacitor-sozo-500v-nextgen-yellow-mustard-vintage

 

[clintj]

You can clip in a larger cap around stock to experiment in values. Caps in parallel add their capacitance together. And the above comments are right - it's the bass and low mids that give up first in the stock 5E3. Just make sure the amp is unplugged and safe to work on (caps drained) first!

Cap types and brands have started wars online, but I'll offer that Mojo Dijons, Mallory 150 series, and yellow Jupiters are my preferences, with the latter being my preferred for tweeds.

 

[Gibsonsmu]

Another option

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/capacitor-sozo-nextgen-blue-molded-vintage

 

[tubeswell]

If you find 22nF (0.022uF) too 'clean', tack in another 22nF in parallel to bolster up the bass/grind a bit and see whether you like the effect. The stock 5E3 (from 1955) has 100nF coupling caps after v1, but lots of peeps find this too raw for their tastes, especially with humbucker or other high output pups.

 

[jklotz]

Awesome guys, thanks! I think I'll order some of each to experiment.

 

[SacDAve]

Glbsonsmu "I have heard orange drops are more sterile" I just used sterile to describe the sound of my last 5E3 I did use orange drops but I also used all metal film resistors. I have some SoZo's and Mallory's I'm thinking about swapping the OD out.

 

[jklotz]

If you find 22nF (0.022uF) too 'clean', tack in another 22nF in parallel to bolster up the bass/grind a bit and see whether you like the effect. The stock 5E3 (from 1955) has 100nF coupling caps after v1, but lots of peeps find this too raw for their tastes, especially with humbucker or other high output pups.

Gotcha. So I guess that answers part of my question. The other part is how much difference is there between, for instance, orange drops and, say, yellow mustard caps of the same value?

 

[Gibsonsmu]

Gotcha. So I guess that answers part of my question. The other part is how much difference is there between, for instance, orange drops and, say, yellow mustard caps of the same value?

That's a tough and very controversial question - I don't know and the answer is you should buy a .022 in a different big brand and see if you hear a difference. That's the only real answer you can ever get to that question. I live the .1 caps in a 5e3! It is "raw" but that's what I think gives the amp it's voice and flair and makes it sound rich and alive. If you want a tighter amp get a blackface or a even a brown - the 5e3 is a wild beast. just my .02

 

[robrob]

Put a .1uF coupling cap in the normal channel and enjoy the 5E3 the way it's supposed to sound. It will sound better for low volume and mostly clean playing. The smaller cap in the Bright channel will sound better when overdriven.

 

[hackworth1]

I concur with Rob. If you want to get loud with a humbucker-fitted guitar, you'll appreciate having one channel with the .02uF cap.

 

[dan40]

Did you build the amp first with another type of cap and then switch over to the OD's later? Did it have less headroom originally? I have tried several types and sizes of coupling caps in my 5e3 build and it never seemed to affect the amp's headroom. I do like using the smaller 22nf caps in the bright channel because it cleans up some of the muddy bass, but the amp still starts to overdrive by 3 on the volume dial. Have you checked the power tube dissipation to be sure it's not running a tad cold?

 

[jklotz]

Did you build the amp first with another type of cap and then switch over to the OD's later? Did it have less headroom originally? I have tried several types and sizes of coupling caps in my 5e3 build and it never seemed to affect the amp's headroom. I do like using the smaller 22nf caps in the bright channel because it cleans up some of the muddy bass, but the amp still starts to overdrive by 3 on the volume dial. Have you checked the power tube dissipation to be sure it's not running a tad cold?

I just finished the build a couple of days ago. I built what David recommended, which was with the OD's. Haven't tried anything else as of yet. No, I haven't checked the power tube dissipation yet. I will check that tomorrow. I've got a buddy who is an amp tech that is going to go over that, plate voltages, etc with me tomorrow. Honestly, I am not unhappy with how the amp sounds, and any tweaks now will be to a) see if I can get it even better, and b) for my personal education. I really enjoy this hobby, so I am trying to learn as much as I can.

Yes, seems to go into breakup somewhere around 3. Mine, however, is pretty loud at that point, and doesn't seem to get much louder after 3, it just starts breaking up more.

 

[King Fan]

Awesome guys, thanks! I think I'll order some of each to experiment.

Lots of good advice in this thread, and I like your willingness to experiment.

If I might suggest, I'd experiment with cap *values* first and *brand* a distant second. I can explain why in a second. But first I will say you might as well switch from ODs to something else. Dave was being responsive to your search for clean tone in fitting polypropylene ODs. He has a well-earned reputation for helping get people what they want. Nothing wrong with those caps. Billm and lots of other top amp gurus praise their clean, neutral sound. But clean and neutral can turn into sterile fast in old Fender amps.

Two 'sonic' reasons to vary cap values first: They make a vastly bigger difference, and the difference is way less subjective. You and I may not agree that Tom Waits sounds "good," but we can agree that he has a strong bass-heavy voice that's really authentic. You won't be wondering if you can hear the difference when you change cap values.

Then too, a budgetary reason: Cap value swaps don't cost a lot, but some cap brands do. Mallory 150s are reasonable, Dijons are downright cheap while still being good. But swapping around all your values in Sozos or Jupiters will get expensive fast.

Cap brands, and even within-brand types, are not only highly subjective but also quite subtle. OK, half of the amp world thinks all of this as snake oil. But the other half can go on for hours about how clearly polypropylene ODs ('sterile) differ from polyester ODs ('sensitive'). IMHO those two do in fact differ *a lot*, but the total difference is in terms of flavors, like Jim Beam vs. Jack Daniels. Testing Mallories vs. Dijons is like Henry McKenna vs. Elijah Craig. Comparing expensive cap flavors is like, I don't know, let's say comparing two different bottlings of 21-year-old Campbeltown scotch. Divinely subtle, but kind of expensive.

 

[jtcnj]

Yes, seems to go into breakup somewhere around 3. Mine, however, is pretty loud at that point, and doesn't seem to get much louder after 3, it just starts breaking up more.

That sounds like a 5e3, or at least mine does about the same.
Remember maxing the unused channel vol will give substantially more headroom while running it any where near the middle will add grit.

You may get some noticeable extra volume as you approach max with the channel in use volume as well. Things can get kind of wild, noisy, and farty though.

 

[robrob]

Disregard.