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57' deluxe – some questions

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by nosuch, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. nosuch

    nosuch Friend of Leo's

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    I gave all the fender reissues a try and decided I like the 57' Deluxe most.
    The tone seems to be so 3 dimensional and close - ideal for the telecaster (I use an AV 52 RI).
    My impression was that there is enough headroom for my small club gigs.

    But:
    I wonder about headroom - I heard that many players experiment with preamp tubes to adjust the point of breakup for their needs.
    I also heard that some use 6L6s in the power amp - can you just stick them in when needed (switch between 6L6 and 6V6?) or is there further modification needed?

    The one I tried had some scratching noises in some settings and produced some farting with the neck pickup. I heard there is a cure for that but will that take away the fullness of the sound?
     
  2. 4 Strings

    4 Strings Tele-Holic

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    Stick a 12AY7 in v1 for less gain and later breakup. This is what Leo used in the original 5E3. I tried a 12AX7 in v1 in mine and didn’t like it half as much as the 12AY7. Not because of the earlier breakup but because the sound was harsher and not as mellow as with the 12AY7.
    The 5E3 is notorious for farty bass, but since I have not had any problems with this in my own 5E3 I have not searched for the cure. But I am sure that other TDPRI members will reply soon enough since it is a common “problem” in the 5E3.
    The 5E3 is commonly praised for its glorious sound when overdriven, and I fully agree. What you do not hear as often is people raving over its clean tones. The 5E3 breaks up easily, but before that it has the best cleans I have ever heard!
     
  3. nosuch

    nosuch Friend of Leo's

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    Yeah, that's what I thought. in the shop I liked it even better than the 57 twin (that may be different on stage, though), it has some warm quality going on which smoozes the tele just fine.
    In that interview http://www.modernguitars.com/archives/000870.html I read that even Robert Cray (king of clean IMHO) used them on "twenty" and his sound on that is better than ever.

    My dream sound is somewhere between clean and breakup, I like to crank up a bit until it sings (but not distorts) and then control everything with the guitars volume. the 5e3 seems to be made for that.

    I will have one built for me, so I need some information to discuss the exacting features (tubes, speaker) with the builder.
    a friend of mine has one with a weber signature that I borrowed once - but that did not cut through the mix.
    I think that a jensen P12Q seems to be a good fit (that was in that fender) for some extended headroom or maybe the neodym eminence lil' texas?
     
  4. morroben

    morroben Friend of Leo's

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    I have a Mission 5E3 with a few mods. When I first got it I used an old P12Q that belonged to the friend that built and modded the kit for me. Eventually he needed that speaker back and I got a Weber signature ceramic 12. The Weber cuts through a mix much better. Not sure how much of that is purely speaker construction and how much is the fact that it's ceramic rather than AlNiCo. Just figured I'd pass the info along. I don't have any experience with the eminence you mentioned so I can't comment on that.
    Good luck...you can't go wrong with a 5E3.
     
  5. Shepherd

    Shepherd Friend of Leo's

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    If you change the coupling caps to .022uf that will tighten up the bass and get rid of the farting..
     
  6. sjhusting

    sjhusting Tele-Afflicted

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    You can't just drop 6L6s in there, there are other issues involved (bias, output transformer, current draw ...)

    I have various mods in mine (well, I built it, I can do what I want) but I would just try it stock first before fixing problems you might not have.

    I do have a Jensen C12K in mine, which is way more speaker than the amp needs (100watt).

    They are great amps, but require that you know how to use the volume control on the guitar and have some sort of control over your picking dynamics to get the best results from them.

    steven
     
  7. nosuch

    nosuch Friend of Leo's

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    I agree with the "play it stock first", but I am looking for information so I can better discuss my needs with the builder.
    If I'd go with the fender reissue I needed the anti-fart mod right away. as I'll have one built I can have it tailored to my needs, so it can reproduce what I put into it.

    thanks for worrying about my ability to play with dynamics and use the volume control. I think I can – at least I get positive comments about that from fellow players.
    ;-)
     
  8. sjhusting

    sjhusting Tele-Afflicted

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    Sorry, didn't mean to insult you. There is a widespread school of thought that requires four distinct channels, each selectable with a footswitch, and no knobs on the guitar. I've noticed they don't show up here much - probably not tele players anyway. But that sort of player won't like a tweed anything. They wouldn't like a lot of early Marshalls either, for that matter.

    Defart mods are reducing coupling and bypass caps (on the preamp).

    "PaulC" mod changes the phase inverter, some like it, some don't.

    I also don't like a 12AX7 in V1; too gainy, and this amp has enough gain already. I wouldn't go higher than a 5751 there, but I use a 6072 (milspec 12AY7). Milspec because I have them.

    There are changes to the tone stack you can make, but this changes the fundamental character of the amp.

    Finally the speaker has a big influence too - if you can, try everything you can get your hands on. Red Fangs seem to work well. I like a C12K in mine.

    steven
     
  9. milocj

    milocj Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    Since the '57 Deluxe is a pretty expensive amp it may be worth asking the store if they will let you try substituting a 12AY7 into the first preamp tube position before you buy the amp. Even if you had to shell out $15-20 for the tube it would give you a good indication of how the amp was originally intended and how that change alone will help gain you a bit of headroom.

    I'm in the camp that thinks this tube sounds better than the 12AX7 because I like this amp mostly for it's cleans and for the range right before it starts to breakup and right after it has started to breakup. If you haven't, you also want to mess around with changing the volume control on the channel that you aren't plugged into. When you get it around 9-10 it usually drops you into some really great cleans while being able to turn the channel you're plugged into up a little bit more. It's hard to explain, but experiment.

    Everybody else touched on the other mods for tightening the bottom end up.
     
  10. kcp

    kcp TDPRI Member

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    instead of using a 12ay7 in v1, i use 12au7(s) in my inverter stages. the 12au7 is very popular in the hi-fi world for its fidelity
     
  11. sjhusting

    sjhusting Tele-Afflicted

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    Remember the 5E3 uses a cathodyne inverter, which only needs one triode (of the two in the 12ax7) and the other half is used as the post-tone control gain stage, so dropping this from a 12ax7 to a 12au7 means a big loss in gain, which may or may not be what you are looking for. The gain of the inverter isn't critical, since the cathodyne inverter is more or less gain of 1 (that is, no gain).
    You might look instead at the 12dw7, in which one of the triodes has the gain of a 12ax7, and the other the gain of a 12au7; exept of course the socket on the 5e3 is wired to use the high-gain half as the inverter. But I've read that JJ makes a 12DW7 with the triode halves reversed, I can't confirm that though. It's called the ECC832 (or maybe ECC823).

    You could also try a 5751 in either position. This has gain similar to a 12at7 but is a much more 'musical' tube.

    steven
     
  12. nosuch

    nosuch Friend of Leo's

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    thanks for all the support. as I have no technical knowledge some posts go too much into the nitty gritty, but I learned:
    defarting can be done by the builder
    I should not mess with different power amp tubes
    I can change the character by experimenting with differnt types of preamp tubes.

    If I change a preamp tube, do I have to bias anything or can I just swap it?
     
  13. milocj

    milocj Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    Preamp tubes are just plug and play so you can swap all you want. You can usually swap between a couple of different rectifier tubes in that circuit without having to change anything around, being as it's cathode biased. This can sometimes get you a little gain in tightness and headroom. You would want to talk to the builder about this, too, if you were having one made.

    You could have a 5E3 built that runs 6L6s if you want to, but you would also need to mention this when having it built because it may need a change in transformers and the bias would have to be set differently.
     
  14. Doc

    Doc Tele-Afflicted

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    try a very efficient speaker.
     
  15. nosuch

    nosuch Friend of Leo's

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  16. ThermionicScott

    ThermionicScott Poster Extraordinaire

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    Playing around with different preamp tubes will change where it breaks up on the volume knob, but might not increase the overall headroom of the amp very much. There are lots of mods that can be done, but they'll change the sound of the amp one way or another.

    Might be worth having a cathode-biased tweed Pro clone (5E5 circuit) for those gigs where the Deluxe isn't enough. ;)

    - Scott
     
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