50’s wiring

TwoBear

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i’ve been considering changing over to 50s wiring and seeing how I like that.
It appears this is wired with the modern scheme. I figured I would just move the tone cap over to the middle/output/volume pot but I’m wondering if the difference in the way the tone pot is laid out would make a difference. Will I have to adhere to the layout/schematic exactly, or? I can see that it’ll work either way I’m just wondering how it would affect the end result. Thanks
Edit-The guitar is a Tokai Love Rock-stock PU’s I think about 2006. Pick ups sound great by the way, very close to my 1970s reborn model that has Seymour 59s.
wiring guitar tone pot diagram


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TwoBear

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It’s pretty interesting I tried to answer my own question with a multimeter some clip leads, 500 K A pot, and a .22 cap, I set the multimeter to read the cap. With one lead attached to the cap where it would have been attached also at the signal input, and the other lead attached to the open lug of the pot, The capacitance seemed all bottled up on one end with a great space of nothing.
Just from looking at the drawing at the top it’s pretty easy to see that you’re not gonna get anything with leads clipped in the 50s scheme, because the resistance isn’t gonna change from the two outside lugs. Reading it with one clip attached to the middle lug grounded looked to be promising- The meter now read the capacitance in a much more add/subtract fashion, much different from that logarithmic snowball. More through the small turns of the potentiometer it would make the meter look more like one of those substitution boxes where the cap value would just change from one to the next. I have no idea how this “ appears“ to our hearing, but it looks like if I want to get the full effect of whatever the 50s wiring seems to have been, I guess I’ll have to follow that scheme exactly. I’m looking forward to hearing about anyone’s thoughts/experiences on this.
 

TwoBear

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Yup, just move them over. Easy to switch back if you don't like it, too.
Yes definitely easy to do that one change, but I might be onto something new with what I just found out. Of course I’m not that knowledgeable about this so I could have totally made a mistake with my meter, and my above post it’s just pertaining to the tone pot, it doesn’t have anything to do yet with the moving of the cap from the input to the output of the volume yet. Ha!
 

chris m.

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Yes definitely easy to do that one change, but I might be onto something new with what I just found out. Of course I’m not that knowledgeable about this so I could have totally made a mistake with my meter, and my above post it’s just pertaining to the tone pot, it doesn’t have anything to do yet with the moving of the cap from the input to the output of the volume yet. Ha!
The main effect of the 50s wiring, IMO, is similar to a treble bleed. The treble won't reduce as you back off the volume pot.

Also, you can not as easily do the trick of rapid muting of your sound by flicking the pickup selector switch while having one volume set to zero. With modern wiring you can switch from let's say the bridge pickup to the middle switch position and the volume will mute to zero if your neck pickup is set to zero. With 50s wiring you have to flick the switch all the way to the neck pickup position, not halfway, to get the rapid muting effect.

The tone pot and its capacitor pretty much work about the same either way, IMO.
 

warrent

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Yes definitely easy to do that one change, but I might be onto something new with what I just found out. Of course I’m not that knowledgeable about this so I could have totally made a mistake with my meter, and my above post it’s just pertaining to the tone pot, it doesn’t have anything to do yet with the moving of the cap from the input to the output of the volume yet. Ha!
You're not really measuring anything that will explain the difference in sound.
Here's a good breakdown of the changes 50's wiring vs modern wiring
 

TwoBear

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The main effect of the 50s wiring, IMO, is similar to a treble bleed. The treble won't reduce as you back off the volume pot.

Also, you can not as easily do the trick of rapid muting of your sound by flicking the pickup selector switch while having one volume set to zero. With modern wiring you can switch from let's say the bridge pickup to the middle switch position and the volume will mute to zero if your neck pickup is set to zero. With 50s wiring you have to flick the switch all the way to the neck pickup position, not halfway, to get the rapid muting effect.

The tone pot and its capacitor pretty much work about the same either way, IMO.
Are you sure about that-I mean the tone part/pot? I think the whole reason for me wondering about this is because I used to own old instruments… I guess when I owned them they weren’t that old, and neither was I ha ha but I was just looking for more ‘variance’ I guess out of my tone control. I use my volumes and tones very much, always changing them for different sounds. I hadn’t thought about it but most of my instruments now are newer ones, than the 50s and 60s stuff I used to play. I only play one tube amp now but I used to have many marshals fenders and boogies and whatever, and I would set the amp up high output, and control the volume from my guitar. I like that interactive sound and feel you get from that stuff.
 

TwoBear

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You're not really measuring anything that will explain the difference in sound.
Here's a good breakdown of the changes 50's wiring vs modern wiring

Thanks for that I remember seeing that many many years ago I guess I’ve forgotten more about what I know than what I actually know now. I remember it was pretty in-depth. I’m not arguing, or I guess I am arguing but hopefully in a constructive manner , and I fully concede that I might be hooking up my meter wrong but I can’t “see” how, If my meter is reading all the values stuck at one end and then by changing it it reads the values over a very much wider spectrum, why wouldn’t our ears hear that differently. And as it pertains to this, wouldn’t I be able to find more usage or Sweet Spot or whatever you wanna call it throughout my tone pot?
If it comes down to hearing tests and equipment being different and listening environments and a whole lot of variables there may be no concise answer? I should probably just get to “more soldering less doddering”
 

chris m.

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Thanks for that I remember seeing that many many years ago I guess I’ve forgotten more about what I know than what I actually know now. I remember it was pretty in-depth. I’m not arguing, or I guess I am arguing but hopefully in a constructive manner , and I fully concede that I might be hooking up my meter wrong but I can’t “see” how, If my meter is reading all the values stuck at one end and then by changing it it reads the values over a very much wider spectrum, why wouldn’t our ears hear that differently. And as it pertains to this, wouldn’t I be able to find more usage or Sweet Spot or whatever you wanna call it throughout my tone pot?
If it comes down to hearing tests and equipment being different and listening environments and a whole lot of variables there may be no concise answer? I should probably just get to “more soldering less doddering”
Just disconnect the tone wire from lug 1 and then use an alligator clip to compare and contrast modern vs 50s wiring while plugged into an amp. Easy peasy. Then solder to whichever lug, 1 or 2, that you prefer.
 

alex1fly

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i’ve been considering changing over to 50s wiring and seeing how I like that.
It appears this is wired with the modern scheme. I figured I would just move the tone cap over to the middle/output/volume pot but I’m wondering if the difference in the way the tone pot is laid out would make a difference. Will I have to adhere to the layout/schematic exactly, or? I can see that it’ll work either way I’m just wondering how it would affect the end result. Thanks
Edit-The guitar is a Tokai Love Rock-stock PU’s I think about 2006. Pick ups sound great by the way, very close to my 1970s reborn model that has Seymour 59s.
wiring guitar tone pot diagram


View attachment 943927
I just did this same swap on an SG and if I can do it, anyone can do it. I didn't follow the diagram exactly - I used the principles of it. The pots were wired 'backwards' from the diagram but I still just swapped the cap location on the volume pot. Did as described.
 

Odie251

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It's so easy to do just try it and let your ears be your guide. Sound is so subjective. I think you will like it though.
 

wildschwein

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I do it with humbucker guitars in lieu of using a treble bleed across the volume pot (which I use in a lot of my single coil guitars). I like what it does when I roll off the volume but it certainly affects the tone pot taper in that not much happens with the tone except in a very narrow band of the sweep at the beginning of the turn. It could probably be fixed to some extent by changing out audio taper pots for linear ones instead -- not sure though because I haven't tried it.
 
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TwoBear

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It's so easy to do just try it and let your ears be your guide. Sound is so subjective. I think you will like it though.
Yeah I’ve got the two Tokai Les Paul’s-‘77/78 & ‘o6 whatever model that is maybe a 185? The newer one has the wiring that is more like vintage and the older one has the circuit board. The older one has its pick ups in the case and 59 Seymores with braided wire, while the newer one has stock pick ups (That sound extremely close to the ‘59 Seymore’s) and probably is the easier of both to switch over. I never got around to switching it yet but as soon as I finish a couple projects I think I’ll change over the newer flame top. My other projects are my tube amps, which I’m more interested in hearing how the guitars interact with them, more so than in the house and studio. I’ve heard it can help finding the sweet spots, interacting with the amplifier as I am one of those that changes the volume and tone all the time.
 

TwoBear

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The projects have multiplied
 

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TwoBear

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The main effect of the 50s wiring, IMO, is similar to a treble bleed. The treble won't reduce as you back off the volume pot.

Also, you can not as easily do the trick of rapid muting of your sound by flicking the pickup selector switch while having one volume set to zero. With modern wiring you can switch from let's say the bridge pickup to the middle switch position and the volume will mute to zero if your neck pickup is set to zero. With 50s wiring you have to flick the switch all the way to the neck pickup position, not halfway, to get the rapid muting effect.

The tone pot and its capacitor pretty much work about the same either way, IMO.
That sounds promising as I don’t like rapid muting of the high end-I would think it would be much easier to find a sweet spot over a broader spectrum. I’m not a fan of having one pick up mute my other one. I’m not sure if I’m stuck with that. I guess I’ll find out after I make the switch.
 

Wallaby

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Just move the leg of the capacitor on the volume pot to the middle lug.

If it doesn't do what you hope it will do or changes the tone or the way the controls operate in a way you don't like, you can move it back.

It's worth having heat sinks to protect the volume pot especially, and perhaps the cap if it's the valuable kind.

I like the "Groot" heat sinks and use them quite a bit, but you can also use alligator clips or hemostats, whatever fits.

1645149537967.png
 

misterdontmove

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I find the 50's wiring to be better. Why they changed it, who knows? The treble doesn't roll off when you reduce volume and the tone control works in a more controlled fashion. I don't think the change in which lug is tied to ground on the tone control makes any difference. That pot is still diverting high end to ground based upon the cap your using.
 

TwoBear

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I find the 50's wiring to be better. Why they changed it, who knows? The treble doesn't roll off when you reduce volume and the tone control works in a more controlled fashion. I don't think the change in which lug is tied to ground on the tone control makes any difference. That pot is still diverting high end to ground based upon the cap your using.
I seem to be hearing that from others also, and I always did play vintage instruments, I guess they weren't vintage then, Ha. I have these two nice Tokai L.P's, a 77-78? Reborn LS60, & 2006 Flame top possibly 185? I just cut the grooves for the new bridge on the old one yesterday, and I just need to check which one will be easier to mod, then I could compare them, as they sound darn similar. Reduced treble loss, and if it spreads the tone roll over a wider spectrum those are all pluses! I'm just throwing in the picture of the new bridge because the guitar is right in front of me right now. The Reborn older one. Edit_I forgot to add my most important take from your reply was about the tone control, and how that shouldn't make a difference except in a positive way, as I probably won't have to worry about moving that connection. Thanks
 

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