5?3 Deluxes

Discussion in 'Glowing Bottle Tube Amp Forum' started by gobi_grey, Feb 13, 2020 at 11:16 PM.

  1. printer2

    printer2 Poster Extraordinaire

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    I am not one to hold my nose to a design that covers a few bases. When I catch up on other projects I might be tempted to do one yet.


    I watched the vid a while ago, can't remember where in it it was, not going to bother searching for it. I do recall pulling up the two schematics and comparing them and getting what they were talking about.
     
  2. jman72

    jman72 Tele-Afflicted

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    Yep. $3 worth of coupling caps and a lower gain pre-amp tube and you have an insanely great and versatile amp. Hardly what I would consider a major change to the circuit. Speaker choice is also important (I have a pretty efficient Jensen C12N, too, to help it stay clean).

    Trust me, I've WANTED to love the Pro ('cause the Blackface amps are way more versatile than the Tweeds, right?). Wrong (at least for me)- that scooped tone just gets lost in the mix with my band and the Tweed's mid punch just can't be touched by the Pro. I never dreamed that the 5e3 would be a usable amp (mostly because of posts like yours that say it is a one trick pony). So, when I built it, I purposely made it as "versatile" as possible, and it turned out perfect.
     
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  3. gobi_grey

    gobi_grey Tele-Afflicted

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    My 5e3 is way too loud to get much of any dirt at gigs. I'd sure like to try a 5a3.
    A friend of mine has an original but it's ALL original and typically needs a firm smack to quiet it down. (he does this, not me!) Not exactly gig worthy, more like kinda deadly.
    Not that he would let me bring it to a gig. Maybe he would. He needs to take it in and have it updated.
     
  4. edvard

    edvard Tele-Afflicted

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    I have my Grandfather's '52 5A3, and it's plenty loud. The thing doesn't distort, neither. I know because as a clueless teen, I took the advice of a book on playing Rock guitar that said turn your amp all the way up to get the best sound out of it, so I did. I was hoping for Metal, or at least Rock 'n Roll. I got Country, and lots of it. What am I doing wrong?
     
  5. voskarp

    voskarp Tele-Meister

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    Attenuator!
     
  6. High Head Brad

    High Head Brad Tele-Meister

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    To be fair its a damn good trick but I’ve finally learned its not for me. I’d love to get my hands on a 5D3 though

    I should add.... I’ve owned a couple of 5e3 clones and enjoyed every one. Its probably a bit unfair to call it a one trick pony but it really does shine when its really cooking. Of course it responds really well to the guitars volume knob and while it sounds good when you back of the volume, other circuits suit my taste better for that application
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020 at 3:39 AM
  7. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    There is definitely something wrong with that amp.
     
  8. muchxs

    muchxs Doctor of Teleocity

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    I was eyeballing our Mystery Amp in the wee hours of the morning because that's when layout epiphanies happen.

    I'll give you a quick rundown: Preamp is a virtual rip of 5E3 with some quirks. The first generation of this thing used grid leak 12AY7s. Three or four generations later they used cathode biased 12AX7 except with the same values in the dropping string to accommodate grid leak.

    There are snubbers across all the plate resistors to tame the gain.

    It has mixer resistors. I like mixer resistors.

    The PI is weird. It's cathodyne except with component values that seem to be artifacts of some earlier version. I'm changing to Fender values or another reliable design.

    It has fixed bias to accommodate the trem. Zero NFB.

    It's like a 5E3 with trem. Am I the only one who noticed the gap in Fender's nomenclature? It jumps from 5E3 to 6G3.

    Let's call this one the 5F3.



    I may be way ahead of the curve on this one. Old electronic organs follow me home all the time. Old electronic organs have a couple well broken in 12" alnico speakers each.

    I figure they're about 94db- 95db efficient. That's actually a big difference compared to modern speakers that are typically close to 100db.

    That's horrible.

    I grew up in a beater household. I'd get a firm smack if I was hungry, tired or cold.

    Your buddy should have your clone to smack around and you should have his amp. Send it to me for some nice NOS sockets.
     
  9. printer2

    printer2 Poster Extraordinaire

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    I doubt I would make an amp that can not play both ends, BF and Tweed. One option I was thinking of was running a Long Tail Pair phase inverter and a Paraphase rather than the Cathodyne that is in the 5E3. The 5A3 and 5D3 has one if I remember right. While not quite true to either amp it might be interesting.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Charlie, a healthy 5A3 should be louder than a ‘59 Princeton....something is wrong there unless the 5A3 has a speaker that is much, much less efficient than the one in the speaker.

    I could not watch..er....LISTEN to that video.


    biasng???? It must have had some very ‘cold’ power tubes in it, ime.


    Charlie, you would have loved the 5B5 I resurrected.....great amp.

    Regarding the ‘one trick pony’ thing as applied to the 5E3....any tweed for that matter, sometimes the rider can get a pony to do whatever the rider wants the pony to do. One can get lively cleans, medium heat, or full-blown overdrive all at the same volume from a 5E3 with nothing more than an adjustment to the pick attack, ime. If not, then the pony is sick or the rider doesn’t understand how the horse responds to the ‘hands through the reins’ thing.
     
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  11. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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  12. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    Hey, @Wally ...do you have a layout for a 5B3?
    I confess...schematics still baffle me.
    I have to look at my '51 Deluxe again.
    I seem to remember it being just like neither 5A nor 5C, and I don't have a layout for 5B...I could be wrong, but I'm thinking it was a transitional thing and there's no actual Fender plans for it...I could be wrong...again.
    Some knowledgeable folks said, if it's a '51, it MUST be a 5A3...but I'm not convinced, because....Fender.
    Anyway...
    I just tried the shorted plug in the other input, like in the video, and it did nothing.
    A couple minutes alone with this amp and a Tele reminded me what a killer it is!
     
  13. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    ...found the 5B3 layout.
    Thanks @robrob !!
     
  14. gobi_grey

    gobi_grey Tele-Afflicted

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    How come? I wouldn't mind watching it again. Pop a bowl of popcorn and sit back.
     
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  15. printer2

    printer2 Poster Extraordinaire

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    A shorted plug will do nothing in any of the inputs, they are all shorted inputs when not plugged into.

    The swapping wires, I did not rewatch but looked at the schematics. The 5A3 and 5B3 effectively have the same inputs (75k compared to 50k resistors, not important in this position). 20uF filter caps rather than 16 uF on the 5A3.

    But looking at the 5D3, I hope the schematic is in error and Fender did not wire up the input as shown. The layout drawing does not show the 1M resistors.

    [​IMG]

    As shown, when you plug into one of the lower inputs the second 68k resistor goes to ground causing the two 68k resistor to act as a 1/2 voltage divider. Also it loads down the guitar with 136k impedance (ignoring the 1M resistor). If you plug into the one input and use a open plug in the other input then the loading on the guitar is about half a Meg. Better would be to change to the regular two 68k and 1M arrangement on the 5E3 and all modern Fender amps.
     
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  16. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Charlie, if Schematic Heaven doesn’t have it...and they do, then I go to EL 34 World. And....amp repair parts.com has the most extensive schematic library I have found. but yes.....I have several resources at hand with that schematic. I spent a fair amount of money on books back in the ‘90’s....and bought myself a copy of Dave Hunter’s book for the holiday season this year.....I like paper in hand...paper money out, paper book in.
    https://schematic heaven.net/fenderamps/deluxe_5b3_schem.pdf
     
  17. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    The circuit below has a neat input wrong circuit that will respond to a jumper Cale between the two units inputs. The resistance decreases and the first stage is hit with a stronger signal from the instrument.

    http://schems.com/bmampscom/univox/univox_u45b.pdf

    I have a 1964 Rickenbacker B9A that has a similar circuit...with four inputs into a single channel. It makes some heat....


    https://schematicheaven.net/newamps/rickenbacker_b9a.pdf
     
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