44.1k and 48k sucks for musicians. Who sells high sample rate commercial tracks?

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by trxx, Aug 6, 2020.

  1. trxx

    trxx Tele-Afflicted

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    I'm surprised that I never see any other musicians talk about this. When slowing digital music to around half speed or lower, the resulting artifacts of hearing between the samples (warbly clicky tones) makes it very difficult to hear alot of notes clearly. True analog records were fine for this and so was tape, only requiring tuning a guitar to the lower pitch. It isn't so fine with digital though since the industry settled on 44.1k/48k hz sample rates. For half speed, 96k hz sample rate is good, and for quarter speed 192k hz is good (I have tested this myself with some of my old recordings in the past). So who sells high sample rate digital music these days? I searched through the sites listed here https://www.sony.com/electronics/best-music-download-sites-hi-res-audio for some otherwise common as rain old AC/DC for example, and I couldn't find it.

    Of course, the internet wisdom is that high sample rate digital music is a waste. It's not. It's damn useful to musicians. There are Super Audio CD's, but as far as I know they won't play on a computer. There is DSD, but the selection seems limited. I just want to get some high sample rate audio into my daw for transcribing without a bunch of digital artifacts in the way of the notes that I'm listening for.
     
  2. TwoBear

    TwoBear TDPRI Member

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    I don't know if this helps or what but I use my stereo looper for recording songs and slowing them down to practice to occasionally, I mean occasionally because I seldom practice, but I remember Mike Stern
     
  3. TwoBear

    TwoBear TDPRI Member

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    I think I push send before I meant to that was supposed to say I remember slowing down a Mike Stern line way way way down trying to cop it because it was very fast. I guess I've done the same with my loop core mono. I think those are 44.1 both of those units the DigiTech is the stereo looper I think they only make one. I'm not sure if this helps or if I'm just completely off the mark though.
     
  4. LetItGrowTone

    LetItGrowTone Tele-Meister

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    A good algorithm slows e.g. 48K to half speed and *interpolates* smoothly between the stretched-out points (adding points between them) to remain at 48K. Not perfect but mitigates this problem. Is your device, DAW, etc. doing this for you?
    (Sorry if this is too obvious and is something you already know.)
     
  5. trxx

    trxx Tele-Afflicted

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    Different time stretch algorithms can offer a little improvement over others, but it will never have the clarity of a higher sampling rate. I use Reaper, which has a choice of time stretching algorithms, all of which I have tried on various material over the years. There is some info here about it: https://reaperblog.net/2017/10/extreme-time-stretching/
     
  6. Junkyard Dog

    Junkyard Dog Tele-Afflicted

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    Neil Young came out with some sort of music download site called Ponko that is supposed to carry higher rates (not sure of exact specs).
     
  7. trxx

    trxx Tele-Afflicted

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    Nothing can really properly deal with the problem after the fact of the music being sampled at a too low sampling rate. The way digital sampling works is that discrete points in time of the amplitudes of audio are measured and stored. It's alot like a flipbook. If you imagine a dot in a given position on a page, where each successive page has the dot in a different position on it's page, say moving to the right, when you flip through the pages at an appropriate speed it can give the illusion that the dot is smoothly moving to the right. But if you flip through the book at a slower speed, the dot begins to look like it is jumping across the pages. That same thing happens with audio samples (the dots) when slowing digitally sampled music. Some time stretching algorithms try to fill in the positions between the samples (the dots) using something called interpolation, but in music there is alot going on (guitars, drums, bass, and so forth, and stacks of harmonics that make up those sounds) to screw up those interpolation algorithms, which can result in funky audio artifacts at slower speeds. In other words, filling in the blanks between the samples isn't nearly as simple and trouble free as the dots analogy. The obvious solution to the problem here is sampling music from the original analog recordings at higher sampling rates. But the industry settled on lower sampling rates long ago with no consideration for how musicians learned music from analog recordings (vinyl and tape) by slowing them down.

    You can hear the effect of a too low sampling rate for slowing recordings at youtube. Try changing the playback speed to 1/2 and then 1/4 speed. Just an example that everyone here is familiar with to try:



    Do you hear all that digital crud at slower speeds? It sounds like flanging or short delay over everything. The faster the music and the lower the volume of the instrument of interest, the more it becomes obscured by the too low sample rate when slowing a recording. And that is with a single instrument playing. Now try it with a full band mix (jump to 1 minute 27 seconds for the guitar solo):

     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  8. trxx

    trxx Tele-Afflicted

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    Yea, at this point Pono is dead. I was excited about it when it started up (from a musician perspective), but so many people dog-piled against higher sampling rates without consideration for things such as slowing recordings for learning music by ear the way that musicians were able to in the past with analog recordings. Having that ability to slow recordings with good clarity is no small thing. It was the primary learning grounds for so many great musicians of the past.

    It seems that the best solution at this point is to find vinyl or tape copies of recordings of interest and sample them myself at a higher sampling rate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2020
  9. LetItGrowTone

    LetItGrowTone Tele-Meister

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    Be careful not to confuse the issue:
    The biggest problem with slowing down the above Youtube video is much worse than the sampling rate issue; the biggest problem with that video is that it is *compressed*.

    Quality of compression, and artifacts when slowing down a compressed file, is a different subject and many times worse than the sampling rate issue in the original post.
     
  10. trxx

    trxx Tele-Afflicted

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    Yes, music that is encoded using lossy audio compression algorithms (the compression type that selectively throws away info to reduce file sizes, not audio compression as in the processing effect) have very apparent artifacts when slowing the speed of the files, which is that weird pitchy, warbly sound, like what we used to here with low bit rate mp3 at normal playback speeds when mp3 began to boom. But lossless encodings still have the flangey, delayed, choppy sound to them. And for lossless time stretching algorithms used on lossless encoded audio (lossless is something of a misnomer by the way), there is still artifacts introduced that can get in the way of clearly hearing music notes in recordings.
     
  11. trxx

    trxx Tele-Afflicted

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    @LetItGrowTone

    Do you know of a time stretching algorithm that is clearly head and shoulders above others for this purpose? Say, slowing down to 1/4 speed.
     
  12. micpoc

    micpoc Friend of Leo's

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    Exactly what I was going to suggest.
     
  13. LetItGrowTone

    LetItGrowTone Tele-Meister

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    No, sorry.
     
  14. trxx

    trxx Tele-Afflicted

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    I'm not an iTunes user (always strongly disliked the software), but it seems like I have seen mentions over the years of high resolution audio being offered through iTunes. Are any of you iTunes users and know if that is the case?
     
  15. Alamo

    Alamo Doctor of Teleocity

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  16. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    it is the case.
     
  17. trxx

    trxx Tele-Afflicted

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    Thanks! I am finding some stuff at Qobuz so far. HighResAudio is giving me lots of, We can't sell you this because of territorial issues. I'll be browsing the rest of those sites later.

    Is this for downloads? 96k hz, or does it vary? And is high sample rate availability selective, or widespread? Thanks.
     
  18. trxx

    trxx Tele-Afflicted

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  19. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    it can be up to you.. you can set what you want your download to be (when you buy a song or album) there are some good things to aac... when it started, lots of people got hung up on the DRM part, which was a necessary part of the negotiation to get the ability to sell music... eventually, it wasn't required... but some connected AAC and DRM and couldn't separate the two emotionally...

    I have sampled cd's my self at the highest bit rates and when using a slow downer tool, still gotten some of the artifacts (it only references the actual data) you reference above. Sampled records don't seem to have them (although any fault in the record itself is emphasized) but, that is a lot of work when you are just trying to learn a part...
     
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