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410 + 115 vs 212 + 115 ?

Discussion in 'The BASS Place' started by Hey_you, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. mexicanyella

    mexicanyella Friend of Leo's

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    One other thing: before I started playing bass with others, my gear mania was raging, and ranging, far ahead of my actual bass playing experience and ability (I got into bass late, after playing guitar for most of my life). I wanted a RIG, man!

    I had the old Univox 60-watt tube bass head (two 6L6 power tubes, see avatar pic above) that I’d played guitar through in a prior band. Figured I was set, as soon as I found a bass cab for it. This led me into a few frustrating problems:

    1) I ended up with a Peavey 2 x 10
    cab loaded with a pair of 10s out of some Ampeg 4 x 10. But I had no bass chops yet, no idea of what tone I was after, and totally unaware of the physicality aspect of getting a tone. So much is shaped by what and how you play with bass...picking approach, muting, developing a touch on the instrument and a range of how hard to dig in vs. turn up but play soft. So everything sounded bad and I had no mental yardstick to judge by anyway.

    2) The head sounded pretty “blah” at soft, solo practice volume. It had a narrow range of sounding pretty good to me, about 60-70% turned up, at which point all the ductwork and filing cabinets in the basement would rattle and resonate. And an old-style head with a three-band passive EQ doesn’t give you much ability to get surgical with trouble frequencies—not that I’d
    Have been able to find any with both hands and a flashlight at that point in my learning curve anyway.

    I would soon learn that as loud and obnoxious as that was at home, it would have been way undergunned trying to keep up with a 100-warr Marshall and a loud drummer. My old 80-watt Peavey TKO 1 X 15 I got to replace it, humble as it is, is barely adequate if I crank it way up, but is way more flexible courtesy of its more comprehensive EQ controls. It can be tweaked to sound pretty good at any volume level it’s capable of...it just isn’t quite loud enough for my band.

    Finally, even more so than with guitar, bass sounding good is totally context-dependent. Bedroom tone perfection often doesn’t translate to ensemble tone perfection at ensemble levels. You have to be able to fit in around the kick drum and guitars without stepping all over them. You have to learn to hear the bass as part of a mix, not in isolation. A lot of great bass sounds in recorded music sound great in a mix but kind of weird in isolation.

    So don’t be in a rush to solve the cab equation until you have the amp in hand and can actually hear it and evaluate.
     
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  2. Hey_you

    Hey_you Tele-Holic

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    I just have a very great appreciation for nice things.I like the sound Waters produces, and other known british bassist. Reeve's speaker designs are a well kept secret I have read. I believe they are akin to the Fane speakers.
    Perhaps attenuate is the wrong wording. I just want to adjust the volume level to blend he 2 cabs sounds into one sound. I do this often with my synth and keyboard. Two sounds blended to create unique sound(or better) I mess with sounds all the time, dialing in, finding the most pleasant sound. If pleasant is what is wanted. I play with Euro rack software and spend large amounts of time fine tuning a "sound". I also will spend all the time I need eq'n a car or home system. 40 mins or so. It is amazing how better sound is when it is fine tuned and balanced. In a word, this is how I think in balanced sounds. "A sub woofer is to enhance the bass line. Not override it." Know what I mean?

    As far as gas. Well, I am retired. The cost won't stop me from eating, n e way. heh. So why not get what I desire now. May die tomorrow. Just saying. And I cannot see myself wanting any other bass sound system after.The challenge is finding an outlet that has any speakers I need to hear. Denver is some 150 miles 1-way from the small city I am in.. So I ask those that have some knowledge. All your input helps me to make a wise decision.
     
  3. mexicanyella

    mexicanyella Friend of Leo's

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    I hear you, but seriously...find a way to make the trip. If you want kick-ass optimal, you need to try and compare in addition to reading. If you’ve gone to the trouble to get the Reeves, put some playing and listening time into the speaker selection.

    I believe that anecdotal advice here is only useful in a broadly cautionary way. You’re not likely to run into too many people with that head and whichever bass you have to begin with. So if they tell you, “hey, the hot setup is an Epifani 3 x 10 stacked with a SWR Henry the 8 x 8,” you only have a small part of the picture. They probably don’t play or sound like you to begin with.

    Besides, testing amps and cabs is FUN, man!
     
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  4. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Interesting your description of synth cab mixing.
    I would totally drop that thinking as you approach your new old school bass rig centered around the tube amp.
    A tube amp interacts with the speaker cabs.

    You mentioned powered cabs for the synth rig, but even if running the synth into a power amp then separate cabs, it's not at all the same as a quad of kt88 power tubes pushing speaker voice coils.
    Tubes and speakers are a total interactive system, as illustrated by the fact that disconnecting the speaker load with melt down the tube amp output transformer.

    You should not have any need to boost or cut the volume of one or the other cabs, if you choose cabs well.
    Ask Reeves for suggestions for a second cab.
    They are selling you a good bunch of stuff and should be happy to discuss products they are not selling you, in the goal of getting top performance from your top bass amp.
     
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  5. Hey_you

    Hey_you Tele-Holic

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    I had queued Bill of Reeves.I like that he referred to forum sites to garner a better understand of the questions I have. And not to influence me without bias to sell his speakers.
    Yeah , I could be looking at the sound setup differently. My thinking process is too darn analytical. But in the end, it's my ears that know best.
     
  6. jannodude

    jannodude Tele-Afflicted

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    The problem too is some speakers have different decibel sensitivity.

    When pairing a 2x12 and 1x15, the 2x12 higher sensitivity will overpower the 1x15 to a point that you probably won’t realize the 1x15 is on until you unplug it.

    I was in the same dilemma OP is in when I was shopping for a cabinet to pair with my 2x12. I ended up getting the same 2x12 as I enjoy the tonal/sonic footprint of a single 2x12 but wanted to have more “firepower” or volume if the need arise.
    8B8564FC-D277-41B8-956E-A48F0AD39B45.jpeg
     
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  7. 68Telebass

    68Telebass Friend of Leo's

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    Cheeky Devil :D!!!!

    you didn’t tell us you got a second cab!!!
     
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  8. jannodude

    jannodude Tele-Afflicted

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    Haha!

    I have something in the works.. :p
     
  9. 68Telebass

    68Telebass Friend of Leo's

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    yeah- it’s called an “earthquake” if I’m not mistaken- be careful with that axe, Eugene...:cool::cool::cool:
     
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  10. Fourstringclover

    Fourstringclover TDPRI Member

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    I will second this motion. I used to play a GK rig in a 5 piece band that was one 15 and a head. I got a Hartke 15 to use with them that was an aluminum cone, but they didnt really combine like I wanted. Then later I got to use someone's gk 1x15 combo on top of my 1x15 cab and it was a huge improvement in all respects. Tho the hartke had more edge and high mids, the matching of drivers and cabs seems to be the way to go. 15s can be alot brighter than youd expect when they are close to ear level, which helps with the beaming of highs. I would consider the dual 15s if your set on the one 15, then you would get the same tone if you wanted to just use one for smaller gigs. Also you wont need to attenuate one cab, which isnt simple with high powered signals. Otherwise I'd say dual 2x12 cabs like those bergantos would be the way to go. Those together would be the highest and about ear level stacked, while the other combinations would be closer to shoulder height. That way youd hear almost EXACTLY what the audience hears from your rig, house sound aside of course. The other plus is rectangular cabs are less awkward to transport.

    I believe the matching of many drivers is partly what makes the 8x10 fridges sound so great. If you were to compare a 4x10+1x15 side by side with one I bet the fridge would be hard to beat.
     
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  11. Nahtabot

    Nahtabot Tele-Meister

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    Not to sidetrack but nice Aerodyne.
     
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  12. Fiesta Red

    Fiesta Red Poster Extraordinaire

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    IMHO, 4x10 is the greatest speaker array in the history of speaker arrays, closely followed by 2x10, then 1x15, then 2x12.

    But that’s just me.
     
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  13. ScottTunes

    ScottTunes TDPRI Member

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    TalkBass has had similar conversations for many years. The most common advice for bass is to match speaker sizes so they work well together - such as 2x15s, 2x10s, 4x10s. Mixing will ALWAYS have issues. Having designed and build many of my own, I am familiar with these problems. You can google the most frequent mixed combination of 1x15/4x10 to read about it... The short answer is you can't even hear the 1x15 because the 4x10 drowns it out! Why bother!

    I prefer 2 separate 1x12 cabs. Mine are loaded with Eminence DeltaLites, and usually one is loud enough for most small to medium clubs. Two can get really loud! I would drive both with a Quilter Bass Block 800 (the photo shows the 45w and 90w Traynors - great for guitar!). These days, I'm out of the bass game... Guitar only now.

    IMG_5370.JPG
     
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  14. Fourstringclover

    Fourstringclover TDPRI Member

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    If 4x10s are greatest, then wouldn't 6x10 be even greater? I suppose if you have the watts, van, and maybee roadies for it. I would like to try 4x10s that were stacked vertical tho one day. Like if you cut a 8x10 in half, and 2 of those would be alot more mobile I bet too
     
  15. teletail

    teletail Tele-Afflicted

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    No, they don't. That's a marketing myth that just won't die. The old "10's for punch and 15's for bass" is not true. It depends on the speaker and the cabinet.

    @mexicanyella gives some great advice. The internet is great for a lot of things and I love it. It's not good for buying gear. You have to HEAR the cabinet, in person with your head, to know what it's going to sound like. You can't do this by committee and you can't do it from your couch - unless your couch is in a music store.
     
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  16. mexicanyella

    mexicanyella Friend of Leo's

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    That’s a good point, and adding to it, a lot of Talkbass conversations about this point out that if you combine a
    4 X 10 and a 1 x 15, the two cabs are sharing the amp’s power equally, providing they both present an equal impedance load. That’s half the power split between the motors on four 10s, and the other half of the power delivered to one motor on the one 15 driver. Likely failure point if pushed hard...possibly compounded by being less able to hear audible signs of imminent speaker failure if the four 10s are burying it.

    Edit: I just realized @jannodude already covered this. Sorry! Missed a few posts somehow.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  17. scottser

    scottser Friend of Leo's

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    410 + 115 vs 212 + 115 ?

    525 vs 327?
    i'll take the 525 please. well, it's more, isn't it?
     
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  18. Preacher

    Preacher Friend of Leo's

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    IMG_2921.jpg

    My current bass rig,

    Kustom Big K III solid state head
    Peavey 2x10 Cabinet
    GK 1x15 Cabinet

    For me I find the 15 takes care of the low end grunt and the 2x10s carry everything else. I would love to have a 4x10 but the size to lug that around is not fun. I can carry these in two trips and not have to see the Chiropractor after.
    The Kustom will also serve as a decent guitar amp through its second channel in a pinch but if playing guitar I ditch the 15 cab.
     
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