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4-way Tele wiring with two push-pull pots - Help me get this right...?

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by Kriticaster, May 6, 2019.

  1. Kriticaster

    Kriticaster Tele-Holic

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    Hey Tele lovers!

    So I'm fixing the wiring that I put into my partscaster a while back and found didn't work properly (well, the cap I put in was way out so basically didn't do anything), and in the process of ordering new caps I got inspired to make a more flexible beastie with more tonal variety, because, why not!

    I originally used Dirk Wackers 4-way wiring with push-pull on the volume as a direct-thru

    IMG_6838.JPG

    I've since ordered a number of different caps as well as a treble bleed... So the idea is to put the treble bleed on the volume push-pull and two caps on the tone push-pull

    I'm going to play around with cap values, but perhaps .022 and .047

    I understand how the treble bleed and tone caps work on the pots...

    IMG_6837.PNG

    IMG_6835.PNG


    So basically my question is without the direct-through and the added push-pull on the tone, how the volume and tone pots should be connected in this configuration...

    Am I right in my understanding that since there isn't a loop between the Vol and Tone pots that the high frequencies are shunted to ground on the tone cap... And the rest of the signal exits through the volume to the jack...

    I'm just not 100% clear on how the Volume should be wired...

    Would this configuration work as a startin gpoint? (with the push-pulls wired as below)
    IMG_6836.PNG


    Volume Pot
    1 = ground
    2 = output to jack
    3 = input from switch

    A = output (from 2)
    B = vol bleed
    C = empty

    D = input (from 3)
    E = vol bleed
    F = empty


    Tone Pot
    1 = to B
    2 = Vol input
    3 = empty

    A = Cap 1
    B = lug 1
    C = Cap 2

    D = Cap 1
    E = Ground
    F = Cap 2


    How did I do?
    Will it work?
    Any problems with this setup?
    Is there a better way??


    If you're still wondering why... Well because it's the first guitar that I've built myself and been confident enough to play around with like this...

    and because I can 8-D

    I may not make much use of the tonal variety, but perhaps I will... It's nice to have it available :)


    Thanks, in advance, for your help peeps!
     
  2. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    I couldn't follow your words. This accomplishes the goal:


    Screen Shot 2019-05-07 at 12.40.07 AM.png



    Note: the red jumper on the switch is to reduce noise in bridge position. Without it, you have an antenna in the neck pickup. Hot connected, ground lifted. This shorts neck hot to ground.
     
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  3. Kriticaster

    Kriticaster Tele-Holic

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    Awesome Moosie! You are indeed a Doctor of Teleocity! All those years in Tele-Med school have paid off!
    Thank you!
    I'm going to try to get this done today... Hopefully it works ;) (questioning my skill, not your schematic)

    Edit: a few orphaned letters deleted...
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2019
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  4. Kriticaster

    Kriticaster Tele-Holic

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    I still haven’t gotten this mod done... life got in the way... good things but still stopped me from opening her up and firing up the soldering iron... will report back in due course!
     
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  5. Kriticaster

    Kriticaster Tele-Holic

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    Ok, so earlier this week I had some unexpected free time and managed to open her up and get the work done!

    Everything went well, the two tone caps work and now make a difference to the tone! Yay!

    The only thing is that I can't hear any difference with the treble bleed engaged..

    As far as I know I wired everything up correctly...

    Here are some pics for proof/troubleshooting (?)

    IMG_6900.JPG
    This is my selection of caps and alligator clips...


    IMG_6899.jpg
    Did a little tone testing (but didn't take a pic with a cap in-situ... For some reason)


    IMG_6897.jpg
    Front view...


    IMG_6898.jpg Side view...


    IMG_6901.jpg
    Everything wired in... Didn't need the red jumper wire on the switch after all... The neck pickup has an extra ground wire, so this seems to stop the antenna effect...

    I'm pretty happy over-all, but the switch is cheap and doesn't click into place nicely, so will eventually replace it... At the moment it adds to the road worn feel of the guitar...

    Thanks for the help @moosie!

    Right, gonna go play it!
     
  6. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    Your treble bleed switch is not wired per my diagram. The good thing is, in this case it doesn't matter! It still works the same. When you say you hear no TB... First, triple-check component values. The most common issue is an order of magnitude error on cap or resistor.

    Assuming they check out, here's what should happen: with the volume on full, no difference with TB or not. With no TB, rolling back the volume should also lose some treble. Listen carefully, you might just be so used to it... With the TB engaged, rolling back to the same place on the pot as before, should be 'brighter'. Depending on your chosen components, it might sound like there's zero tone change as you roll back (that's a sign it's working), or it might get even brighter, or it might still lose treble, just not as much.


    The red jumper...

    The neck pickup cover must always be grounded, no matter what. On a two-wire neck pickup, for a 4-way series circuit, it's necessary to separate the cover from the common, and add the third wire. Sounds like you already had the extra wire, and just hard-grounded it. Good.

    But that has nothing to do with the red jumper. In bridge position (only), the neck pickup common is grounded, yet the hot lead is floating. A recipe for noise, even with a grounded cover. It's not a showstopper, and in fact it's how Fender has done it. But since the solution is so simple to do, and you never know when you might be playing the bridge pickup under a neon sign... it's always a good idea. :)
     
  7. Kriticaster

    Kriticaster Tele-Holic

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    Hi @moosie, thanks for your feedback on all of this...

    I’ll have a play and listen to the TB circuit...

    I wanted it engaged when pulled up, is that why it’s not wired the same?

    I’ll add that jumper when I replace the switch... no point adding noise if it’s not wanted ;)

    Gotta go out to a gig now, so will report back later...
     
  8. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    Looking at my diagram, I've color-coded the common terminals (green) on the push-pull switches. These are DPDT switches, meaning there are two positions, and two poles, or banks of terminals. Internally the two banks are not connected. If any question about how the switch functions, use a meter set to continuity (beep), or resistance. Connect a common to another terminal, and cycle through the positions, seeing when, and if, it connects. Always good to do with ANY new switch, just to ensure it works.

    So... you'll notice I've wired the pot connections to the common terminals of the volume push-pull. The TB components are shown wired across the banks (poles), in one of the two positions (I don't try to show 'up' vs 'down' because switches vary). The other position is empty, nothing connected.

    You've reversed the wiring, with the TB wired to the commons, and the pot to the 'on position' terminals.

    As I said, in this case it doesn't matter, because they're connected just the same when engaging the switch. I only mentioned it in case as you looked it over, troubleshooting, you saw the difference and might have thought it was a problem. It's not. You can see how in a different scenario it would break, though. With your wiring, the TB parts are going to connect to something, in either position. In the wiring I show, the pot wires will connect to 'something', and the TB is just one of the two 'things'.

    Lots of words about something that doesn't matter. Hopefully it helps with the learning part of this mod project. :)
     
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  9. Kriticaster

    Kriticaster Tele-Holic

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    Hi @moosie, ah yes the connection/orientation of the switch... I had done some reading on how these push-pull pots work and realised that I could connect it like this, even thou it was different from your diagram... I wanted it quite close to the body of the switch as it's fairly tight inside with all of the wiring etc... And I wanted to engage the TB when pulling up on the switch... So that is what I did... I'm glad I didn't make a mess of it :)

    I've had a play with the volume/Treble Bleed and can't really notice any change in tone... Also, my amp is pretty low-grade, so may not have the range to be noticed... But it's done now, so perhaps one day when I upgrade to another amp I'll hear it ;)

    I appreciate your help and advice!
     
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