4-Way Tele Switch Mod: Neck pickup bleed through

Discussion in 'Tele-Technical' started by T00DEEPBLUE, Apr 3, 2020.

  1. T00DEEPBLUE

    T00DEEPBLUE TDPRI Member

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    Hi.

    I keep running into this really annoying problem on my 4-way Oak Grisby switch where the neck pickup keeps bleeding through the guitar signal by a very small amount when I switch the bridge pickup all by itself.

    What's strange is that the amount of neck pickup bleed through I get is only a fraction of the neck pickup's maximum output. But it's undoubtedly colouring the tone of the bridge pickup when it shouldn't be. I just want the pure bridge pickup by itself darnit.

    This is the diagram I'm using.

    [​IMG]

    One difference however that I swapped the hot white wire on the neck pickup for the black wire. If I used the white wire per the diagram above, both pickups would be out of phase. Swapping the white and black wires around fixed it.

    another thing of note is when I'm on series mode, if I disconnect the hot of the bridge pickup, even though I'm expecting there to be zero output from anything, I'm still getting that tiny fraction of output from the neck pickup. o_O

    Also, when I select the neck pickup by itself and I tap test the bridge pickup, I get no output. The problem is solely with the neck pickup (in this case a Lollar Royal T)

    This is weird and very confusing.

    How do I fix this?

    Thanks.
     
  2. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's

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    I'm anxiously waiting for someone with real "electrical scholarship" to answer this. I've seen a similar effect many times before, the "phantom" pickup response. Ghost in the machine, sez I.
     
  3. jvin248

    jvin248 Poster Extraordinaire

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    .

    How well separated is the neck pickup cover ground wire from the black signal wire? Your neck pickup should have three wires and each does something different at the switch.

    .
     
  4. SPUDCASTER

    SPUDCASTER Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    With the control plate off the guitar and the switch unscrewed and separated from the plate.

    Does the switch work as normal? If it does, lengthen the slot on the control plate.

    Just throwing things out there.

    I've done several OG 4 ways. Not a real OG fan. The first one, the contacts were bent just enough to give me fits.

    Switched to the CRL 3 way and push/pull Deaf Eddie mod. Game changer.

    Thanks Eddie.:)
     
  5. T00DEEPBLUE

    T00DEEPBLUE TDPRI Member

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    I'm having a really hard time understanding this.

    According to what all the wiring diagrams show, when the switch is selected to the bridge position, although the hot wire of the neck pickup is still connected to the hot of the volume control, the other side of the neck pickup coil has no path to ground. Meaning the neck pickup has no continuity. Ergo the neck pickup should be 100% dead.

    [​IMG]

    This makes sense on paper. And this is perfectly consistent with what's in my guitar according to my multimeter. There is definitely zero continuity between the negative side of the neck pickup coil and ground when the bridge pickup only is selected on the switch.

    So how the hell is it still generating an output?? Even when I select series mode (position 3) on the switch and I physically disconnect the bridge pickup hot lead from the selector switch entirely, the bridge pickup is totally dead as expected, however, the bridge pickup is still producing that same weak output. Even though the bridge and neck pickups are wired directly in series and the hot side of the bridge pickup is physically disconnected, I'm STILL getting a neck pickup output. What the hell is going on? o_Oo_Oo_O

    The more I look at this guitar, the less this is making any sense to me.
    The neck pickup cover has it's own separate ground wire soldered directly to the volume pot. Just like all the diagrams recommend.
    I have also tried this but it made no difference. Still the same problem.
     
  6. Tuxedo Poly

    Tuxedo Poly Tele-Afflicted

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    Try the neck shunt jumper.

    Tele_4_Way_option_neck_shunt.jpg
     
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  7. adjason

    adjason Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I'm thinking of installing a 4 way switch- so thanks for all the advice here
     
  8. TokyoPortrait

    TokyoPortrait Tele-Afflicted

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    Hi.

    When I did the parallel / series thing with the middle position, I used a mini toggle DPDT switch. So, from any of the standard / conventional three positions, flipping the mini toggle switch overrides the selector and gives both pickups in series.

    Not saying this is better or worse than doing it via the four way switch mod, just another option.

    See here, at the end of the article. The diagram shows a push pull knob, but the same wiring applies if using a separate mini toggle, which is what I did (you can see it in the photo below, lurking between the volume and tone knobs).

    https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/22357-mod-garage-telecaster-series-wiring

    F418BFD8-F3FD-4496-A83E-86BA2673AD4F.jpeg

    Pax/
    Dean
    p.s. sorry, I’m no help re the actual thread question.
     
  9. T00DEEPBLUE

    T00DEEPBLUE TDPRI Member

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    I was genuinely losing hope but I decided to try this scheme anyway, doubtful that it would work.

    But holy crap, it actually does! It's totally cured the problem! Thank you!

    And when I think about it, it makes sense that this works because by adding that extra little jumper, it ensures that when the bridge pickup is selected by itself, the hot side of the neck pickup also is shunted to ground as well as the cold side. Why Lindy Fralin's wiring diagram omitted that little jumper I'm not sure. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that I needed to flip the polarity of the neck pickup wires to prevent it from being out of phase with the bridge.

    Also neat that you're from the Merseyside area too. You've definitely earned a free pint if we ever bump into each other. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2020
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  10. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's

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    See, here's the issue: 100% "dead" pickups (those without continuity between the hot and ground) CAN make a sound and/or affect the output.

    I've seen this many times with my FAT-O kits - customers occasionally report that pickup that does not make a complete circuit (like the neck in the four-way mod) can still have a SLIGHT audible effect on the tone, even though it doesn't show ANYTHING measurable with a meter.

    I have a RIC 4005 that landed with a dead bridge pickup (I have since had it rewound), but it made a DEFINITE difference in tone when you played both pickups.

    The SG I just picked up for my P-Rails "quarantine project" had a bridge pickup with a busted coil, so it showed no continuity/impedance - but it still affect the tone when both pickup were played, and even sounded (very weak and thin) when played on its own.

    The GHOST in the machine.

    I was thinking it was a case demonstrating that everything that you hang on a circuit makes a difference.

    Inductance? Without continuity? Is a puzzlement...

    Someone MUCH SMARTER than me may have an answer for this.
     
  11. SPUDCASTER

    SPUDCASTER Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    That's the Deaf Eddie method. I just did it with a push/pull. I already had a mini switch between the volume and tone controls for the tapped bridge pickup.
     
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  12. TokyoPortrait

    TokyoPortrait Tele-Afflicted

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    Hi.

    I wonder if this is like the Hot/Cool switch on my Vox AC4HW1? With it engaged it removes the tone stack, but only at one end. Moving the tone knobs still has a small effect on tone.

    Pax/
    Dean
     
  13. moosie

    moosie Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    That's not the only reason to use this. Your bleed problem is just example of what can happen with a pickup who's hot is live, and ground is lifted. The circuit becomes an antenna, picking up noise.

    I use the 'shunt' as @Tuxedo Poly calls it, on every 4-way series I draw.

    Credit to @waparker4 for the idea.
     
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