25 watt 5E3 Tweed Deluxe speaker advice needed please.

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by Mike R., Jun 22, 2019.

  1. Mike R.

    Mike R. TDPRI Member

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    I own a Lil’ Dawg 25 watt build of his 5E3 and am looking for a less efficient and less loud speaker than the current 12F150 which is rated at 99dB if I remember correctly. I use a Weber 50 watt mini mass to knock some off when I need to. The 12F150 is clean and *loud.*

    I am drifting away from overdrive pedals (please don’t tell TGP) and appreciating a more direct into the amp approach with this particular amplifier. Pedal wise I am down to a Bad Bob Boost and a non-high gain King of Tone.

    Through the amp I use Strats, Les Pauls with both HBs and P90s, and of course....Telecasters.

    Musically I am 50s and 60s blues, no hard rock and no metal. Maybe *some* more gained up stuff, think Joe Walsh if you had to put a name to it.

    Amp specs:
    25 watt @ 8 ohm output transformer
    JJ’s (1 5Y3GT, 2 6V6GT, 1 12AX7, 1 12AY7)
    Weber 12F150 (8ohm, 50 watt, lt. dope)

    Thanks in advance for the advice!
     
  2. gridlock

    gridlock Friend of Leo's

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    Give Weber a call. You can’t go wrong.
     
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  3. Mike R.

    Mike R. TDPRI Member

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    Thanks. I have chatted with C.J. and he recommended a list (below) to look at. I’m leaning toward either the 12A125 or the 12A125A simply because of what I play but was hoping for other opinions. He said that Weber’s 30 watt speakers can handle 25 watts easily and with no issues.

    12A125 (8 ohm, 30w, light dope) this is the main P12Q variant from the mid 60’s, with a multi-ribbed seamed cone for very emphasized treble and headroom. This is the standard 12A125 which works great in tweed and blackface style amps.

    12A125A (8 ohm, 30w, light dope). 11oz alnico magnet / 1.25” voice coil. Authentic sounding choice for woody, reedy, late 50’s / early 60's Fender tone. Tight low end, detailed high end. Compressed and fattened at higher volumes.

    12A125S(8 ohm, 30w, light dope) same 11oz alnico magnet and 1.25” voice coil but with a different style mid 60's cone which is more forgiving than the standard one. moderate breakup, good moderate tone, very versatile.

    12A125H (8 ohm, 30w, light dope)same 11oz alnico magnet and 1.25” voice coil but with a hemp cone which is a very soft material, darker, warmer, foggy and less focused. Hemp's longer fibers give treble notes a sub-harmonic richness that warms the sound. great for situation where clear articulation isn’t the objective. it cuts the treble, but it also affects the overall response and feel to be a little more squishy.

    and to compare more to what you have, here is a list:
    suggestion #1: a 12F150 for a very classic blackface fender type tone. strong low end, smooth present high end. Very American (Fender). check out the Tone Report for more detail: tonereport.com/reviews/weber-speakers-12f150

    suggestion #2: a 12F150B. same strong low end as the 12F150, but with a British cone for a little more emphasis on mids, more “chime” (low to mid treble) to the high end as opposed to “sparkle” (high treble to presence). mix of American and British.

    suggestion #3: Ceramic Blue Dog for a British sound. Clarity and chime without any harshness. Full clear tone with top end that isn’t spiky. Very British (Vox).

    suggestion #3B: Alnico Blue Dog, for the same clear Voxy tone but in an alnico flavor

    suggestion #4: Ceramic Silver Bell for a Marshall British sound. Strong tight low end and focused lower mids, with a mostly rolled off high end but still with a nice cut.

    suggestion #5:Ceramic Gray Wolfwhich has the present upper midrange cut of a V30 - but with a better overall tone and great aggressive sound. review with more in-depth info: www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/weber-gray-wolf.1233300/
     
  4. Snfoilhat

    Snfoilhat Tele-Afflicted

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    Easy answers or better(?) questions

    A1. get a less sensitive speaker w/ similar EQ
    A2. revert the amp back to the 12W original design


    Q1. how the heck does a person get 25W clean out of a 2@ 6V6GT amplifier w/ only two preamp gain stages and cathode bias?
    Q2. explore turning the attenuator down even more and compensating for any tonal changes to get back to normal?
     
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  5. Mike R.

    Mike R. TDPRI Member

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    To A1&2: I’ve been speaking to Jim about a 5 watt amplifier to scratch that lower watt itch.

    To Q1&2: I’m working with the mini mass lately and trying to compensate for any tone changes. What I see with attenuators is you lose the speaker interaction which is a large part of (to me) a good overdriven tone hence the inquiry for a less efficient speaker. I can’t answer Q1.
     
  6. King Fan

    King Fan Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    12A125A. End stop period out.
     
  7. theprofessor

    theprofessor Friend of Leo's

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    I think I'd go with a Weber 12A125A also. But that's only because the Tweed Deluxe Speed Shop version of that speaker is only rated for 20W. I cannot imagine a better speaker on planet Earth than the Tweed Deluxe Speed Shop A12Q for a 5e3. But since it can't handle 25W, go with the Weber 12A125A at the appropriate wattage rating (as low as possible that can still handle the power). And if it were mine, I'd probably go with no dope.

    That said, you might ask C.J. what the differences are (beside the obvious difference in the dust cover) between the Speed Shop A12Q and the Weber 12A125S. It sure looks to me like the A12Q is based off that S speaker, but with a different dust cap and no dope.
     
  8. whoanelly15

    whoanelly15 Tele-Holic

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    I will second this. If that doesn’t suit you, maybe consider an Eminence Legend. Breakup and punch of that one is just right to me too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  9. SacDAve

    SacDAve Poster Extraordinaire

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    speakers no way around buy & try myself I like the 12A125A, Celestine blue and Vintage jensen P12Q I can’t find any deference in the weber and Vintage Jensen
     
  10. derekirving

    derekirving TDPRI Member

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    @Mike R. I have a Lil Dawg D-Lux and I have a Weber 12A125A in it. Ironically I was thinking of a 12F150 *BUT* the 12A125A is still a pretty efficient speaker I use it to gig in my trio and it works fine. I play rock n roll rockabilly and it's great for what I do, I also use flatwount guitar strings. If you want a bit less efficiently in speakers, there is there Weber Signature models (e.g. Weber Signature 12) though I think the 12A125A holds together better. On a side note, I suggest swapping out the JJ 6V6 those are louder/more aggressive than a traditional 6v6. If you can get old but good RCA 6V6 ($$$) go for it, for newer tubes get the Electro-Harmonix (EHx) 6V6
     
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  11. homesick345

    homesick345 Poster Extraordinaire

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    weber sig12s

    93db
     
  12. Mike R.

    Mike R. TDPRI Member

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    Thanks to everyone for the replies so far. I appreciate it.

    Remember my amp is 25 watts versus the traditional 12 or so watt 5E3.

    I was concerned that the 12A125A might not be *that* much off from the 12F150 in terms of loudness and efficiency. It’s rated at 30 watts versus my 50 watt 12F150 though so that does help slightly for speaker breakup.

    The 12A125A has been recommended a lot to me.

    I emailed Jim at Lil’ Dawg and he recommended the Weber DT12 which I had never heard of. He said the same thing about the 12A125A and my current speaker not being that different to notice a drastic change.

    https://www.tedweber.com/dt12

    “Weber's DT-12 speaker provides warm smooth tone with good bottom end. The 20oz magnet helps keep the speaker somewhat inefficient, so you can drive your amp into overdrive more easily than with a more efficient speaker. Excellent replacement for Deluxes, Pro Reverb, and Bassman 50w, where you want to get some drive from those amps without a thin and harsh treble.

    12", 20oz Ceramic magnet, 30 watt, 1.5" voice coil, ribbed cone, 3" paper vented dustcap.”

    I like Weber speakers a lot but it’s tough to choose when I can’t see a response chart for the speaker or the dB rating.

    The 5E3 is a darker sounding amp that it sort of mid forward. If the speaker is too mid forward it’s too much.

    I can say that the 12F150 is a *LOUD* speaker that stays clean in the D-Lux 25 watt OT version. Initially that’s exactly what I asked for but I’m trying to go away from OD pedals and go straight into the amp so I need something different.

    I’ll definitely look at the EH6v6 and see they are like $22 a matched pair so it’s a relatively cheap experiment. I’ll also email Jim and ask about tunes that might get me where I want to be.

    I have a suspicion that where I need to be is a lower wattage amp for this particular use so there’s also that....

    Thanks again!
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  13. Minivan Megafun

    Minivan Megafun Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    I've got the 12A125a in my 5E3 and it's better than an actual 1960 Jensen P12Q that I had. I stopped chasing the tone of that amp when I got the 12A125a.

    I have a trio of the DT10's in my Vibro King. They have a long break in period but once they settled in I really like these speakers. CJ recommended them to me when I asked for a replacement for the stock Jensen P10R reissues that would tame the harshness, stay inefficient, and not add a bunch of weight to the amp (VK's are heavy). The DT10's are very balanced with great high and low clarity without the insane volume that comes with Webers F line.
     
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  14. King Fan

    King Fan Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    The 12F150 is famously massive and percussive. If you catch a fingernail on the strings, ears bleed in the first five rows.

    I respect Jim's advice a ton. The DTs are worth looking at. But although the DT does drop efficiency, it's still got a big voice coil and ceramic presence. Alnico compression is your friend here.

    Plus IMHO DT voicing may not be perfect for 5e3; these were designed to take the shrill or cold out of BF amps, and the Deluxe is warm already and wants its treble heard.

    The Legend or Sig 12 Alnico are also good options. Or... can I suggest with a friendly wink that what you really need is a 15w Deluxe?
     
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  15. archetype

    archetype Fiend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Is yours the ceramic mag? How does it sound? I've got a Sig 12AS in a box waiting for completion of the 5E3 build I haven't started. All the parts are sitting there, staring at me and muttering.

    I figured the 12AS was Weber's appropriate, low-cost 5E3 speaker. CJ Sutton at Weber concurred and said it didn't really need edge dope to sound right in a 5E3.
     
  16. Mike R.

    Mike R. TDPRI Member

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    I am starting to think I should do exactly that regarding the lower output amplifier.

    The Weber signatures have a max. 25W rating so I don’t think they would work in my amplifier.

    So far the 12A125A seems to be something I’d want to try so maybe I’ll give that a go and look at pricing for a smaller amplifier.
     
  17. schmee

    schmee Poster Extraordinaire

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    If you like the 12F150 but it is too loud don't go alnico. It's a different sound. This assumes "too loud" is your only complaint. Some 12F150's are dreamy good though so it's going to be tough. My impression is the Emi GA SC64 is similar tone to a very well broken in 12F150 and not quite as loud. I think it's going to be tough to make a big difference with a speaker though. But there are a few that really knock down volume. Some PA speakers do that well. But often they take some of the crisp highs off too.
    I tried an Emi PA speaker my neighbor had, we AB'ed it with my speakers . It really knocked volume down and sounded real good. I'll find out what model it is and report back.

    JJ power tubes are great but they are clean and loud too. Have you considered some tube changes, maybe an old pair of Tung Sols, or trying different pre tubes. T7, Y7 etc?
     
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  18. schmee

    schmee Poster Extraordinaire

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    A good condition Utah out of a 60's Pro or Twin sound good and are not loud. Also the same for Oxford in the bigger magnet ones. Like the 12T6 etc. I had a couple reconed to original specs for a Pro Rev and man they were great, big and clean.
     
  19. Mike R.

    Mike R. TDPRI Member

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    I like the general tone of the 12F150 but adjectives like “woody” and “reedy” make me want to try the 12A125A. That said those words mean different things to everyone.

    I’m 99% blues R&B with some light to medium overdrive. So I’m trying to find that balance of volume and hair.

    I just spent some time with the Weber mini mass attenuator and the amp with nothing in between and it does need at least a boost to get some hair on the note. The amp wants to stay clean and that’s what it was built to do with the wattage and the current speaker.
     
  20. schmee

    schmee Poster Extraordinaire

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    I see. Yeah I can see some of those alnicos being "woody or reedy" somewhat. When I think 50's Blues, and to a lesser extent 60's blues.... I think fat and warm with breakup, but never woody/reedy. But I'm not including the big time rock players, Clapton etc, who play blues in that.
    Warm and broken, this is dirtier than I'm actually thinking but typical of what I think when I hear "50's blues":
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
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