The problem with looking at both sides of an issue is that it gives you eyestrain, and makes your head hurt.
2014 article: "Why I Hope To Die At 75"
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Chester P Squier
Friend of Leo's
I turn 75 in a few months. I have survived cancer, a heart attack, and sepsis. I don't feel disabled, although I do not like to drive at night.
Last week I led the music at an afternoon worship service at a senior living center. I do this every month. I think this is why I survived cancer, the heart attack. and sepsis.
Last week I led the music at an afternoon worship service at a senior living center. I do this every month. I think this is why I survived cancer, the heart attack. and sepsis.
chris m.
Doctor of Teleocity
No way 75 is the number for the average American. I'm guessing the average number is somewhere in the 80s, but it is a different number for every individual depending on their health and life situation. I do agree that the descent into dementia is the most scary possibility.
If dementia is not in the picture, then as long as people have positive social relationships-- people they love, friends, family-- and stuff they like to do, and can still do-- gardening, pet care, music, watching movies, whatever-- then they can feel life is very much worth living even if they have to deal with chronic pain, incontinence, and a whole host of embarrassing inconveniences. I read a piece by an elderly man where he said he loved to garden in his yard, but then as he lost mobility he could only take care of a planter on his windowsill, and then he could only take care of a single potted plant by his bed....but that was still enough to give him something to look forward to.
Long term care insurance is simply unaffordable for the vast majority. My opinion is this is one thing that individuals or their families should not have to cover. In most first-world countries it is covered.
If dementia is not in the picture, then as long as people have positive social relationships-- people they love, friends, family-- and stuff they like to do, and can still do-- gardening, pet care, music, watching movies, whatever-- then they can feel life is very much worth living even if they have to deal with chronic pain, incontinence, and a whole host of embarrassing inconveniences. I read a piece by an elderly man where he said he loved to garden in his yard, but then as he lost mobility he could only take care of a planter on his windowsill, and then he could only take care of a single potted plant by his bed....but that was still enough to give him something to look forward to.
Long term care insurance is simply unaffordable for the vast majority. My opinion is this is one thing that individuals or their families should not have to cover. In most first-world countries it is covered.
I'm so sorry your son went through that Toto. Sounds like he handled all of it with grace that I would probably never be able to muster.
Thank you CSE. It has now been over nine years since my oldest son has passed, I still miss him every single day that I still remain alive. They say time heals all wounds, but I don't hold that to be true anymore.
We are however constructed in such a manner so that while we still yet live, we get up and face the new day, just as we've always done. Life is a long and winding road, pitfalls await us at every turn. Why some make the road from beginning to its natural end, and others do not is a mystery.
In that case, I think you need to get out more!
57joonya
Tele-Afflicted
Exactly , I just worked in a guys house that was 94 . Healthy , fit , out playing tennis every other day , if not every day . Fantastic quality of life .it’s true, Health care has found ways to extend the length of life , That’s very true . But it’s really up to the individual person how they want to eat ,exercise and maintain their physical health .
Since I was a wee lad I was dragged into nursing homes to visit the miseries.
They vary widely and terrified me as a kid, well into roughly now days.
So yeah I agree that many elders are forced to suffer long years, after any happiness passes, and even after the relatives who demand med tech be applied to max possible life extending degrees; lost interest in visiting the elder they refuse to let move on.
I was made Conservator when my Mother could not keep track of herself.
I reached a point when my court and doctor guided practices felt to me like they were abusive to her, and she agreed but had different plans than I or the professionals foisted on her.
I called the lawyer and asked him to ask the judge to appoint an emergency Guardian, other than me.
She did not live long enough after that, BUT, a guardian would have literally strapped her down to a never die machine where she would have basically been tortured for 5-10 more years.
Instead, her last day after it stopped raining cats & dogs, I brought her to the library and gave her a bath. Washed her hair and never saw her alive again.
I felt it was a merciful death.
But damn, she dodged whatever the opposite of a bullet is.
Segovia was asked after a concert, why he played a particular piece so fast.
His answer was "because I can".
He was 93.
I really appreciate all the good discussion here. It's an interesting topic.
I watched an old clip of Willie Nelson playing Whiskey River so fast he didn't run into the end of it, he hit the front of it!
FWIW, just this month I started, wait, was that last month?
Just last month I started taking Lions Mane mushroom extract for memory care or whatever they call FOMO due to forgot to notice or cannot remember.
Then my wife started suggesting recent news stories about how chronic pain (which I have) leads to dementia and arthritis (which I have) leads to Alzheimer's.
I >tried to argue with my wife< that those studies take patients with dementia and see what else is in their medical history, then presume that if old folks hurt and old folks forget, obviously hurting causes forgetting.
Dummies!
Old folks disorders are caused by not dying young!
Might as well say chronic birthday cake use makes you forget stuff!
Same with arthritis, what the heck?
"Leads to"?
"Causes"?
"Is associated with"?
Is commonly a co-occurring condition"?
IMO science far too often attempts to brand cause and effect on common co-occurring conditions, as if it was more likely that a soldier getting shot at leads to encountering an IED, because both happen to soldiers and the shooting is commonly the first of those two associated events.
Sadly, getting grumpy about stuff younger folks say is associated with dementia, Alzheimer's, gettin old, gettin middle aged, and working in high tech.
Big_Bend
Poster Extraordinaire
"No More Games. No More Bombs. No More Walking. No More Fun. No More Swimming. 67. That is 17 years past 50. 17 more than I needed or wanted. Boring. I am always bitchy. No Fun -- for anybody. 67. You are getting Greedy. Act your old age. Relax -- This won't hurt."
HST
I get his point and at 71 the ship is listing slightly. On the other had my dad will be 94 in October. He’s still living independently but fading. He’ll be lucky if he goes before he needs nursing care.
I agree with TD. I gonna go strong. Just a whippersnapper at 62, my wife 65. We take no meds and not overweight!
Looking forward to many many more years.
But if there comes a time when I can't wipe my own ass, then it's check out time.
Looking forward to many many more years.
But if there comes a time when I can't wipe my own ass, then it's check out time.
One of the best discussions I've seen here - in all my years. Going back to the original post and view and the 2014 article/opinion - It resonates with me. Not picking the somewhat arbitrary age of 75, but the acknowledgement of the fact that some of us - and we don't know who - will suffer poor health, pain, even lethal conditions, which strike long before we expected or were ready. I see it with a sister-in-law who, at 71, is struggling with serious dementia and now breast cancer. No one asked her if she was ready, no one warned her, and right now she would opt for a quite death if that were possible for her - she says. But it's not. She's in a care facility, going through chemo and struggling to hold onto what's left of her mind. I guess for all of us, its worth thinking about the remaining years and what we really think we are prepared to handle. Then, we fall back on hope (maybe prayer for some) and luck.
Life ain't easy.
Life ain't easy.
howardlo
Tele-Afflicted
I’ll let you know. I am 75 now.
String Tree
Doctor of Teleocity
I hope he gets his wish.Why I Hope to Die at 75
Article is from The Atlantic, hopefully it allows you to read, if you're curious.
Author is Ezekiel Emanuel, a (retired, I think?) oncologist, bioethicist, and a vice provost of the University of Pennsylvania.
His article spends a good bit of time on his primary concern with aging: the quality of your life nearly always worsens, and in many cases, significantly. He is particularly fearful of dementia--as am I. I largely agree with many things put forth in his article, particularly this:
"...over the past 50 years, health care hasn’t slowed the aging process so much as it has slowed the dying process."
Meaning, we may have found ways to delay death and thus extend the number of years we have here... but we haven't necessarily found ways to extend good, quality years of life.
He goes on to say, "but here is a simple truth that many of us seem to resist: living too long is also a loss. It renders many of us, if not disabled, then faltering and declining, a state that may not be worse than death but is nonetheless deprived. It robs us of our creativity and ability to contribute to work, society, the world. It transforms how people experience us, relate to us, and, most important, remember us. We are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic."
When asked if a couple months ago, has anything has for him since he wrote the infamous 2014 article, Emanuel said, "I wouldn't say nothing." Emanuel's partner does not agree with his plan, and "she would like me to consider preventative measures like a flu vaccine. A lot will depend on whether I really am a rare outlier** at 75, and I'm not deceiving myself. That will be the biggest challenge . . . We are in discussions," Emanuel said. (in his article, he indicates he's not going to kill himself or live unnecessarily dangerously when he hits the 75ish mark... but he also won't actively try to extend his life with vaccines, cancer treatment, etc. He would seek palliative care, but not curative care)
(**ie, someone exceptionally fit and healthy)
As I said, I agree with a lot of what he says in his article... but it's also interesting he seems to be leaving the door open for a bit more "flexibility" than his earlier adamant stance
I was always told to be careful what you wish for!
String Tree
Doctor of Teleocity
Copy that Gold Leader!I was always told to be careful what you wish for!
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