Whoa, talk about the best thread coming back from slumber with a vengeance. Are we going to see more GY bursts come to life?
1959 Les Paul Build
- Thread starter preeb
- Start date
The post processing is a long and technical stage but the highlights are cleaning, compensating tip size, rendering and output to CNC program.
I start with cleaning which means removal of points that are a little off of the smooth rendered surface. this can happen from little dings and non steady holding (being too careful...)
Good points should be in the 0.002 threshold (this is insanely accurate but why not (-
Here is a small recurve section close up..
When scanning vintage parts for reproduction I NEVER use the smoothing function in the software. It irons everything alright but distorts the original point location.
I'd rather render the original points than have a smooth rendering because the original is never smooth (-;
Here is the final rendering of the CNC run. Note how thin the binding shaving line is...
I can CNC this top in high resolution that will take over 1 hour but will end with a super smooth accurate copy of the original down to 0.002" and will not require any Slack Belt sanding!
That's it... and this I believe is the closest you can ever get to the original fresh top design. Compared with the other 3 top scans I could definitely see the areas that got compromised when they used a worn out dummy. The 57s were close but the mid 59's were a bit off so I assume they used the same dummy between early 57 and late 59.
Hope this helps somebody out there in this ancient thread... but data is data and I'm happy to have the opportunity to record those great guitars... down to two thousands of an Inch (-;
Shabat Shalom and stay happy, safe and healthy
I start with cleaning which means removal of points that are a little off of the smooth rendered surface. this can happen from little dings and non steady holding (being too careful...)
Good points should be in the 0.002 threshold (this is insanely accurate but why not (-
Here is a small recurve section close up..
When scanning vintage parts for reproduction I NEVER use the smoothing function in the software. It irons everything alright but distorts the original point location.
I'd rather render the original points than have a smooth rendering because the original is never smooth (-;
Here is the final rendering of the CNC run. Note how thin the binding shaving line is...
I can CNC this top in high resolution that will take over 1 hour but will end with a super smooth accurate copy of the original down to 0.002" and will not require any Slack Belt sanding!
That's it... and this I believe is the closest you can ever get to the original fresh top design. Compared with the other 3 top scans I could definitely see the areas that got compromised when they used a worn out dummy. The 57s were close but the mid 59's were a bit off so I assume they used the same dummy between early 57 and late 59.
Hope this helps somebody out there in this ancient thread... but data is data and I'm happy to have the opportunity to record those great guitars... down to two thousands of an Inch (-;
Shabat Shalom and stay happy, safe and healthy
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No more GY bursts... thank you (-;
It was fun while it lasted but I'm in a whole different place now with more room to expand my ideas and continue the journey.
Engraver-60
Friend of Leo's
Glad you are back to adding to this very important thread. I really wish I had the CNC info and machinery to duplicate for my next 2 personal builds. My first was a crude attempt (and it came out pretty well, so I've been told by a former quality guy from gibby, who also is custodian of his granny's '59). I don't have the one I am trying to replace - if I did I wouldn't need to, eh? Shabat Shalom, and Stay SAFE and Healthy.
Davecam48
Poster Extraordinaire
TomBartlett
TDPRI Member
Great to see you back to your roots Gil. This was a fun part of my career back in the day scanning all the guitars i had running through my shop, with the permission of their owners of course.
Back many years ago I was using a one micron scanner, (not my scanner, i employed a local college who had a $200k scanner!) but it wasn’t a point probe scanner like yours, i was using a cloud scanner, which was a laser beam, not a plastic nib. something like 2 billion points on this top: so much fun discovering all the nuances of these old guitars. You could zoom into each weather check and actually see the wood between the weather checking cracks.
I chose to leave the data as it was scanned and CNC it exactly. I hope you’re doing well Gil!
Tom Bartlett
Back many years ago I was using a one micron scanner, (not my scanner, i employed a local college who had a $200k scanner!) but it wasn’t a point probe scanner like yours, i was using a cloud scanner, which was a laser beam, not a plastic nib. something like 2 billion points on this top: so much fun discovering all the nuances of these old guitars. You could zoom into each weather check and actually see the wood between the weather checking cracks.
I chose to leave the data as it was scanned and CNC it exactly. I hope you’re doing well Gil!
Tom Bartlett
Hi Tom and thanks for posting. First time I scaned a top was on a laser scanner but the point cloud was so large that I couldn't load it into Rhino. I had to ask the scanning studio to thin the resolution down to be able to load and even then it was very hard to process. I'm sure some of the newer hand held laser scanners can do a good job and it is definitely safer for those expensive guitars.
I also find it faster and easier to capture most other measurements with the arm because except for tops and neck shapes everything else is 2D (body, covers and headatock outlines) or dots and simple distances (frets, holes, drills.. etc). Still wish I could afford a good laser scanner and be able to 3d scan a whole guitar in seconds.
I also find it faster and easier to capture most other measurements with the arm because except for tops and neck shapes everything else is 2D (body, covers and headatock outlines) or dots and simple distances (frets, holes, drills.. etc). Still wish I could afford a good laser scanner and be able to 3d scan a whole guitar in seconds.
Don't know whether there is a scanner that can do it in seconds but they are definitely getting faster and cheaper. Also the raw data files are getting much smaller. I had no issues importing the raw scan data of a 60th anniversary R9 we had scanned, into Fusion 360.
Very good resolution on these as well. You can see the stamped R9 on the inside of the control cavity very clearly.
Cheers Peter.
It's very cool being able to get those super dense clouds.
Personally, I will not go that path because I don't need billions of dots to get the geometry right.
After all, when creating the surfaces and outlines the meshes and lines are eventually based on a few hundred points at best so investing in a laser point cloud devise is not getting my job easier or better, if anything it will complicate things for an old school dog such as myself (-;
The great thing about the arm is that it is able to pick a singe dot at a time which is really what's needed usually, but on the other hand the manual collecting is sometimes tough especially with a curved top.
There are many ways to skin a cat but the essence of my post was mostly about that particular 1960 top being more "perfect" than previous ones and it was more about the source and the history behind it.
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We are using a service, which is quite inexpensive by comparison to what was available years ago. I'm a CAD monkey so once it's scanned there are endless possibilities. Not talking specifically about a burst here but any guitar. I can model different pickup configurations, or scale lengths, or neck profiles.
I'm not sure I know what "arm" you are talking about. I assume it is a digitizing arm of some sort? Do you have a screen shot or brand name? Sounds really cool.
Cheers Peter.
I'm using the MicroScribe 6MX arm:
https://novedge.com/products/microscribe-mx-6-dof-mus-software-included
It can also be combined with the laser attachment if I'll ever need it @ 28000 points per/sec.
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I use a technique that is nascent at the moment called photogrammetry, resolution can get pretty high depending on camera used. I have seen files where the ink of a tattoo is shown as a raised area, so it picks up ink thickness whatever that would be. I guess once processed it would also be useful for cnc? That’s not my area though, visual effects for film is my area. Had a read through this (again). As about to start on my first build, found some planks 60mm thick, that have been stored for 40 years buy guy who bought them from timber merchant in the 80’s, it’s swietinia, they were already air dried when he got them, so possibly older? Dunno, only downside is they are 310mm and 305mm wide so will have to add a wafer either side, there will be enough offcuts to get grain matched pretty close. (I hope). This as well as a couple of other build posts are a treasure trove of useful data.
A good friend of mine, Joe Perry, asked me to babysit and protect his '59 Burst as Gibson scribed it at his house. I saw Edwin use the same type of scribe, but a much earlier version. I videotaped the whole process, which was several hours. Oddly enough, the Gibson rep also had the Tom Scholz prototype in his trunk.I'm using the MicroScribe 6MX arm:
https://novedge.com/products/microscribe-mx-6-dof-mus-software-included
It can also be combined with the laser attachment if I'll ever need it @ 28000 points per/sec.
Wound_Up
Tele-Holic
Amazing to see this thread active over 10 years later!
So I don't have to go through the entire thing, is there a page where you can see the finished guitar from pg 1? I can tell just from the first page that no detail will have been missed on this. Really curious to see how it turned out. Thanks!
So I don't have to go through the entire thing, is there a page where you can see the finished guitar from pg 1? I can tell just from the first page that no detail will have been missed on this. Really curious to see how it turned out. Thanks!
Bob J
Tele-Holic
Um… go through the entire thing. It’s a masters course in guitar building. You won’t be disappointed.
GunsOfBrixton
Friend of Leo's
Best answer there is.
They need to be old originals or identical replicas to sound as expected, otherwise they may do more harm than good being a crucial part of the tone chain.
Also a matter of taste… some like the thin/bright sounding SS but in the context of this thread I’d keep it true to the old ones.
identical replicas... wich one? i've seen 4uncles and looks the part... also area59 has one with softbrass saddles and tooling marks...
can you give me an advice? it has to go on an old growth replica
thank you
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