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1946 Fender Woody Princeton Amp & Steel

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by creebobby, Aug 4, 2013.

  1. backalleyblues

    backalleyblues Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    Besides the filter cap issues already noted, it looks like the field coil speaker isn't hooked up quite right, or am I imagining things? VERY cool amp, regardless, I can imagine Leo building this one himself as well... the volume control may have been a special request, it certainly looks like it's original to the amp... wish I had some cash to throw at that myself... didn't see any sign of a serial #, was there one on this amp? Speaker date code is 328544, which makes it late October, 1945, likely the first couple batches of post-war production-VERY early Princeton amp!!!

    Franc Robert
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  2. creebobby

    creebobby TDPRI Member

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    Blueprint!

    Didn't see a serial number anywhere.

    I worked all day today to create a first draft 'actual size' blueprint in Photoshop!

    I've attached a thumbnail.

    You can get the full resolution jpeg, actual size at 300dpi at:

    http://www.creebobby.com/woodyblueprint1.jpg

    Soon I'll type up a written description with all the measurements and notes I took.
    The notes along with the blueprints and the pictures should be enough for anyone who wants to to make their own DIY replica cabinet!
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  3. creebobby

    creebobby TDPRI Member

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    Notes and Measurements:

    1946 Fender Woody 'Princeton' Model 26

    Notes and measurements for making a reproduction cabinet.

    Front Baffle:

    The front baffle is made of 3/8" plywood and measures exactly 10" wide by 9" tall.

    The round hole for the speaker is centered and measures 6 1/2".

    Rear Baffle:

    The rear baffle is also made of 3/8" plywood and measures exactly 10" wide by 2" tall.

    Grill Cloth:

    Both the front and rear baffle have a knit cotton velour / velveteen curtain type fabric stretched over the outward side. Fabric is stapled with probably 3/8" deep staples all around the backside and then trimmed. The fabric is a medium rust / adobe / pinkish red, and has a deep fuzzy nap.

    The fabric adds app. 1/16" to each outside edge of the baffles.

    Maple Cabinet:

    The cabinet is constructed of 3/4" maple board.

    The cabinet box (minus the handle and feet) measures 10 5/8" tall, 11 5/8" wide and 5 1/2" deep.
    The baffle opening is 10 1/8" wide by 9 1/8" tall.

    The side pieces measure 9 1/8" tall by 5 1/2" deep.

    The top and bottom pieces measure 11 5/8" wide by 5 1/2" deep.

    Curved Edges on the Cabinet:

    It seems like all edges of the cabinet were initially rounded with a router bit that's 3/4" tall and 1" deep. After the cabinet is screwed together, all the edges are sanded and rounded further with a hand sander. The top front edge is sanded the most, giving a shallower thin flat appearance to the curve. The front bottom edge is also sanded to make it thinner and flatter. The hand sanding extends up to 1 1/4" from the front edge.
    The hand sanded curves are somewhat irregular, and it would be up to the judgement of the individual as to how much extra roundness is added.

    Handle:

    The handle is cut from a 3/4" piece of maple. It measures 8 3/4" wide and approximately 1 7/16" tall. (It was probably cut at 1.5" tall and lost 1/16" from sanding.)
    The handle has two 3/8" bolt holes that are drilled 4.25" apart. The 3/8" holes probably only extend down enough for the stove bolt heads to be sunken, and the hole beneath the bolt heads narrows to the width of the shaft of the bolt. The total length of the two handle stove bolts are maybe 2 1/2". They go through the top of the cabinet, and are secured by two nuts.

    The handle is 1/8" closer to the front of the amp. It's mounted 2 1/4" from the front edge and 2 1/2" from the rear edge of the cabinet. (Measuring the edge of the wood to the outer edge of the handle.)

    The hand-hold cutout is 7/8" tall. Refer to the blueprint for the other dimensions and contours.

    The handle edges are rounded by hand. At the top of the handle, the depth of the rounding is 1/8". Near the base of the handle, the depth of the rounding is about 3/16".

    Rubber Feet:

    The rubber feet are a simple plug type. They have a width of 15/16" and are 5/16" tall, with flattened bottoms.
    The center of all feet is about 1 3/8" from the sides, front and back of the cabinet.

    Chrome Strips:

    The center Chrome strip is 1 3/16" wide. The two smaller chrome strips measure 1/2" wide. There is a 7/8" space between the strips. Chrome strips are about 1/32" thick.
    The strips are simply bent over the top of the baffle. They don't appear to be attached in any other way.
    The strips are chrome plated metal. A magnet sticks to them.

    Long Angle Iron Brackets:

    The cabinet is held together with four angle iron brackets. They measure 3/4" tall and approximately 4.5" long. The holes in them are 1/8" or maybe 5/32".
    One side of the angle iron has three holes. The other side has four holes, with the second hole from the left lower than the others.

    Screws:

    Screws are round head, slotted 1/2" wood screws with an 1/8" wide (or possibley 5/32") shaft, and a 1/8" long unthreaded section close to the head. Screw head measures about 7/32" wide.

    Short Angle Iron Brackets:

    The chassis and baffles are held to the cabinet with small 3/4" angle iron brackets that measure 1/2" wide. They have a 1/8" or maybe 5/32" hole that is 9/32" from the front of the bracket.
    They are attached to both baffles with rivets. There is a 1 1/2" gap between the inside sides of the cabinet and the brackets.

    Chassis:

    Chassis is one piece of sheet metal bent to a U shape. A magnet sticks to the chassis metal.

    It is exactly 10" wide, 4" deep and 1 1/2" tall.
    The chassis is set back 1/4" from the back edge of the cabinet wood.
    The hole for the volume knob is centered 7/8" from the left edge of the chassis. The inputs are 3.25" and 4 3/8" from the left edge of the chassis. The power cord hole is centered 13/16 from the right edge of the chassis.

    Tube and power supply placement:

    Moving from right to left (looking at the chassis), there is a 1/4" gap between the right side of the cabinet and the transformer. The power supply is about 2 1/2" wide. There is a 3/8" gap between the power supply and the first tube. The first tube is about 1 1/4" wide at the base. There is a 3 1/4" gap between the tubes. The second and third tubes are about 1 3/16" wide at the base. Then there's a 1 1/4" gap between the second and third tubes and the left edge of the chassis.

    The transformer starts 7/16" from the front of the chassis. The first tube starts 3/8" from the front of the chassis. The front left tube starts 3/8" from the front of the chassis. The rear left tube starts 2 5/8" from the front of the chassis.

    The small angle bracket beneath the volume knob is 2 1/4" from the front.

    Misc.:

    The output transformer is 2" wide, for what it's worth.
    The Utah speaker is 8".
    The speaker mounting bolts stick out 9/16" from the baffle.

    Finish:

    The cabinet appears to be finished with one thin coat of clear lacquer that has yellowed a bit along with the wood. A lot of it has chipped off. The inside of the cabinet doesn't appear to be finished.

    Chassis Support Block:

    The transformer side of the chassis is supported by a wood block that measures 1 5/8" deep, 7/8" tall and 1/2" wide. It's attached to the inside of the cabinet 3" from the front and 1 3/4" from the top of the cabinet. It appears to be attached with two small nails.
     
  4. creebobby

    creebobby TDPRI Member

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    It looks like the volume potentiometer in the amp is date coded for September of 1946 (304638)? If this was part of the amp as initially built, that would place the construction of this amp as late 46 early 47.
     
  5. Prairie Dawg

    Prairie Dawg Tele-Meister

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    Those old woody amps look a lot like Heywood Wakefield furniture of the era.
     
  6. geemo

    geemo Tele-Holic

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    I like this thread! Great info guys!!
     
  7. andyfromdenver

    andyfromdenver Friend of Leo's

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    Wow Creebobby, great post, saving for posterity :). Thanks!
     
  8. Ike286

    Ike286 Tele-Holic

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    Love it! Buy it fix it play it post vids of it!!!
     
  9. cowboytwang

    cowboytwang Poster Extraordinaire

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    Glad you got to check it all out without having to buy it. $2500 is a bit on the high side for that set. If the amp, and steel, were both in good working condition that's not to bad of a price. For non-working I'd knock 25% off, so top price for me would have been $1800-$1900 for the set.
     
  10. blue56

    blue56 TDPRI Member

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    there were 3 amps... the 'princeton' you have here became the champion -- the 'model 26' p/p 2 6V6 fore runner of the deluxe-- it had a control panel -- and the custom made 2 6L6 one 15 professional -- which used a 26 control panel with the 26 defaced .. this one does seem to have a volume control atho most didn't I think -- they were making it up as they went along !
     
  11. creebobby

    creebobby TDPRI Member

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    I'm meeting tomorrow with the Austin woodworker I had in mind to discuss making a run of repro. cabinets in different woods!

    His work is top notch so the results would probably be up there with art furniture - he's also really into special woods.
    I don't yet know what the price point would be, how much he would want to change/upgrade the construction method, and how much of the finishing work I'd need to do myself (or what it would cost to have him do everything.)

    Anyways, does anyone here think they might be interested in going in if he does a batch?

    If so, what wood would you want? Plain maple, mahogany or walnut like the originals? Flamed maple, maybe even bookmatched? Light exotic or dark exotic wood? Koa?
    Red Wheat Blue (or custom) Grill covering?

    Spray lacquered like the originals or simply oiled and sealed?

    I think this run would all be the small 8" speaker size.

    This is still in the early stages but if anyone thinks they'd like to be included please let me know.
     
  12. andyfromdenver

    andyfromdenver Friend of Leo's

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    Pm-ing
     
  13. creebobby

    creebobby TDPRI Member

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    Had a great conversation with the woodworker.

    He's going to work up a quote for the shop time it will take him to create 12 'cabinet kits'.

    He would do the following:
    1. Cut and shape the cabinet box and handle.
    2. Glue the cabinet together with hidden dowels/biscuits in the joints (It appears that the originals are only screwed together with angle iron, but to make this a solid cabinet he highly recommended gluing with some type of simple hidden joint. This would make the long angle irons optional.)
    3. 150 grit sand the glued cabinets just so that the edges match.
    4. Drill the handles and boxes so that they bolt together.
    5. Cut the front and rear baffles from 3/8" baltic birch plywood.

    So I would get the rough-finished glued boxes, handles and baffles from him.
    I would collect all the other materials, finish a few for myself and make the extras available (with everything needed to complete them with simple tools) as kits to others.

    The curves of the edges on this amp are so extreme that he said a router bit wouldn't be enough to do the job - he'll have to use a shaping tool.

    I'll update when I know more. In the mean time, if anyone else is interested in getting in on the run, please PM me.
     
  14. keithb7

    keithb7 Friend of Leo's

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    PM sent.
     
  15. ampking300

    ampking300 Tele-Meister

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    Fender Model 26 History

    To all interested, read the article that I wrote on the " Fender Model 26 History ", dated March 8,2013--"Fender Model 26-Wish It Were Mine ", it should clear up some questions regarding the 3 Woody's, good luck to all,Ray
     
  16. FiddlinJim

    FiddlinJim Tele-Holic

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    What I would truly Luv is to have some woodie-style cabinets made around more-available (late 50’s) chassis. I'd jump at a 1x15 Woodie Pro that'd fit a 5e5a chassis, or a Woodie Princeton that'd fit a 5f2a chassis. Sure, they wouldn't be 'replicas', but they would be beautiful. They also may not resonate quite as well as that big ol' narrow panel baffle board...
     
  17. ampking300

    ampking300 Tele-Meister

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    You are right about this being a very early model ---I kept only one each of the Fender Woody"s out of my huge collection. I kept a maple cab with gold grill and an on/off toggle switch.Mine has the same model Utah field coil speaker dated 328545. Latter models have the Jensen field coil model G8RS, than came the more common Jensen permanent magnet model PM8C. None of the Princeton models have any markings or serial #'s, almost all only have 2 inputs and nothing else----read my article on the " History of the Fender Model 26 Amp " on the March 8 article titled " Fender Model 26, Wish It Were Mine ", about page 48 or so.
     
  18. creebobby

    creebobby TDPRI Member

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    AmpKing300's Article Re-posted

    Hello Ray!
    Thanks for joining in here.
    If I may be so bold as to quote your awesome article from the other thread:

    "Hi, my name is Ray and I am new to this forum. I am a bassist/guitarist and amp collector. I started playing in 1967 and seriously collecting vintage amps and speakers from 1972 to present,I started selling my huge collection about 5 years ago. In the past 40 years I have owned 62,yes ,62 Model 26 Deluxe amps, plus 7 wooden Princeton and 6 wooden Pro models,--- here is what I know about these amps. All models were made with maple, walnut,mahogany, oak or ash solid hardwoods.Handles were made from the same hardwoods. Three stains were used, blonde, medium brown and black.Grill cloths were red,blue and gold.All of these models were held together by 3/4" tall angle iron, baffles were held also with 3/4" tall by 3/8" wide angle iron. All models used Altec Lansing power and output transformers. All models were made between Dec.1945 and April 1948.All princeton and deluxe have 4 1/2" round/deep,plug-in rubber bumper style feet/glides. The Pro have 4 knock in style steel glides .All models with the exception of the early prototype Deluxe have 3 steel chrome plated grill protectors, the center being largest and the 2 side ones being the same width. There are about 1,350 total models made starting with serial # 200 going up to at least # 1562. All deluxe models have downward facing tubes up until about ser.# 380 or so when they were changed to the more common Z chasis with the bottom of the tubes facing directly toward the backside of the amp.Most model 26 deluxe above ser.# 300 use the more common Jensen model PM 10C speaker dated the 32nd week of 1946,( Leo had about 1,000 of these ) Serial #'s ran consecutively after ser.# 229, ( last prototype ). I know of only 8 prototype Model 26 deluxe models, 4 have no markings at all and they all definitely have same main components as the early K&F amps, Ex. same power and output transformers, same model G10RS Jensen field coil speaker, same brown bakelite lined control knobs and only 2 chromed steel grill protectors of the same width.I have owned 2 unmarked models and #229.I spoke to collector Perry Tate about 7 years ago regarding the early models. Perry has 1 unmarked model plus ser.# 219, he told me he has seen ser.#209 and we concluded that Leo must have started with #200, although no one has seen this one or any earlier ser.#, and we have not seen or heard of any #'s in between these ones, and I know of ser.# 232 and I have owned #' 236 and 237, both maroon anodized chasis. My highest ser.#ed Deluxe was #1562.All of these models( not #1562) have the black ,numbered face plate and only 1 6F6 or 6V6 power tube.Most Deluxe models have the more common 5Y3 rectifier, 2 6V6 power, 6N7 phase inverter and 6SC7 pre amp tube set up. Model 26 Deluxe are much more plentiful, with Princeton models being about one fifth or so of these numbers,( my calculated guess ) and the Pro models being super rare and surely made on a custom basis, ( maybe 20 or so made ).Leo called it the Model 26 because he started production in February,( 2nd month ), 1946= 26 for the month and year,( all 8 early models have a Jensen model G10RS speaker with a date code of 220606, 6th week , February of 1946 ) .All Princeton models do not have any markings or serial #'s, they used a single 6F6 ( early ones ), or a 6V6 power tube,5Y3 rectifier tube and a 6SN7 or equivalent pre amp tube.They have either a Utah or Jensen field coil speaker,( early one, Jensen G8RS, latter ones,Jensen PM8C ).They only have 2 inputs and no controls at all, and some have an on/off power switch.I started building all model wooden cab repro cabs about 30 years ago,( I have about 30 or so made from beautiful hardwoods,which I made to exact specs, and some 4x10",4x12",1x12" cabs,they look awesome and were used as extention cabs when I played guitar ), I hope to make some repro chasis of each model in the next few years, to place in some of these beautiful cabs.I apologize to all my fellow amp collectors,historians as I am going by memory mostly, and may have forgotten some details,but not too bad for a 60 year old amp nut, thanks for reading and enduring. I have kept only one each of these beautiful woody amps to remain in my collection. P.S. here is some more info. that I forgot about regarding Fender Model 26 wooden cab amplifiers. All Pro models have the 1"x2" steel chrome plated logo with the lightning bolt and Fender inscription,this plate is on the lower right hand side, some Princeton and Deluxe models have this plate on the right side of the back panel.All back panels were covered in the same style and color grill cloth, ( velour,velvet type, early prptotype Model 26 Deluxe have much coarser burlap type grill cloth ).All hardwood handles were secured by one 2 1/2" slotted round head #10/32 stove bolt on each side of the handle, each being drilled directly thru each side of the handle and the top board of the cabinet.On the early Deluxe models,up to the Z chasis design, about ser.# 380, these bolts have dual purposes of also being threaded into 2 threaded metal metal bars that were welded to each side of the chasis. All latter Deluxe models,after ser.# 380, have separate holes drilled directly behind each side of the handle and use 2 oval head slotted 1 1/4" stove bolt to secure the chasis. All models have point to point circuitry,( each electronic component soldered directly to the chasis, both positive and negative ), all Z chasis Deluxe models,( after about ser.# 380 ),have a circuit board. Hardware was 3/4" round head slotted #8 wood screws to mount internal angle iron and cabinet inside for baffle board.Back boards used #6 same style 1/2" screws. baffle and back board side used 5/8" split rivets for mounting the 3/4"x 1/2" wide angle iron. Baffles were 3/8" plywood on Princeton and Deluxe models and 1/2" on the Pro. alsoQUOTE=kenk;4823109]Nobody knows each side of the handle many they made, but I think the serial numbers go up to 1500. I wish there were more info on these. Does anyone know the origin of "volume going to 12?" My tweed deluxe goes to 12 also, and this seems so arbitrary -- especially since few musicians in those days wer seeking the fat juicy tones that we all know lurk at that end of the spectrum. But "12"?

    Last edited by ampking300; March 6th, 2013 at 07:23 AM. Reason: add information"

    And also:

    "---any Model 26 after serial # 380 or so, are the best sounding ones,these were the predecessors of the very first strait tweed TV front Deluxe model of 1948,
    . . . . . .
    All of the early models have Leo's initials, also, some of the Z chasis models,after serial # 380 or so.I suspect that once solid production began, ( mid to late 1946 ) Leo and his small crew just concentrated on getting these incredible amps out to the general public,they did a great job."

    Which was all posted here:

    http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-cent...el-26-woody-wish-were-mine-3.html#post4868229
     
  19. creebobby

    creebobby TDPRI Member

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    Set is on the baY!

    The Woody Princeton and Steel are currently up for auction on the bay!

    A search of their completed items shows that they listed the amp last week with a BIN of $2500 and it sold! However they didn't mention in the listing that the pickup on the lap steel was rewound and so maybe the buyer backed out for that reason (?)

    The new listing is a three day auction with reserve.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290960499463

    Here's some more info. from the listing about where the set came from:
    "Hello, this is Chazz at South Austin Music. First here is some history of the amplifier and steel. They came to us from a gentleman who purchased them from the original owner. The condition would imply this set was rarely used. The people we got the set from did not use or play the instrument so it's been described to us as basically a one owner instrument and amp pair bought at the same time. I updated the listing as there are some details that should be known about this instrument. The pickup was actually rebuilt with the original flatwork material and newspaper for the bobbin form, just like it was originally. It's an early pickup and the design has a louder 1st and 6th string. The original (to our eyes) cable will be re-soldered so this instrument can be played, but please note the early pickup will have a slightly uneven string balance. You may want to replace the pot if you wish to play this instrument. The amplifier, however, has remained untouched electronically and has no signs to us as ever being modified, maintained, or altered in any way. If we can help you determine this for yourself in any way, please let us know. There are not many amps around like this so we must assume the buyer or collector as the expert. My experience with vintage amps tells me this is stock (age of solder connections, nothing shiny, screws and bolts looked untouched when amp came into our store with no wear marks) but again, there isn't much documentation to tell me exactly how this amp should look. The face panel layout is different than some I've seen, but I believe this to be the nature of an early Fender amplifier undergoing revisions and changes. If we can answer any other questions please feel free to contact us! Our store phone number is 512-448-4992. My name is Chazz if I can be of any service to you. Thanks and happy bidding! Chazz @ SAM"
     
  20. creebobby

    creebobby TDPRI Member

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    I'm wondering if I shouldn't split my run of repro. cabinets between the three different sizes: 8", 10", 12"? I like the smallest version best but some people like themselves a big ol' speaker.

    Is there anyone with access to an original 'Deluxe' 10" Model 26 or a 'Pro' 12" Model 26 that could get me the following measurements?:

    1. Height and Width of the front baffle (opening minus 1/8" for fabric)
    2. Depth of the cabinet.
    3. Circumference of speaker hole
    4. Total width and maximum height of the handle
    5. Width of the wide and narrow chrome strips
    6. Space between the large and small chrome strips
    7. Height of the rear lower baffle.

    Everything else I think I could calculate from those measurements.
     
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