15W or 22W?

[jefrs]

I have used the Super-Sonic 22 and it is a very nice amp, well suitable for small gigs.

However I seriously doubt whether you can get "22 watts" out of a pair of 6V6 valves.
You can just get "17 watts" out of the more powerful EL84
EL84 are "5.7 watt" valves, so in p-p they run to 3 x 5.7 = 17 (nominal)
6V6 are "4.5 watt" valves and run to 14 watts in p-p
Both have limiting factors of 12 watts anode dissipation(Wa), at which point they melt. It is possible to push them close to this point but not continuously (hence getting "46 watts" out of the olde AC30/6). So 24 watts is as much as as a pair of these valves will take, and they sound plain nasty (but not for long) being driven this hard.
As a comparison: the Marshall 18W (which is "17 watts" is a far nicer sounding amp than the Marshall 22W.

The Super-Sonic 22 is a great little amp whatever its output really is.

 

[spankdplank]

I would suggest a Marshall 18 watt clone or a Deluxe Reverb. Both are roughly the same volume even though one is rated at 18 and the other 22 watts. One can be louder than the other, depending on the efficiency of the speaker in it. The DR cleans are legendary, but they are hard to get any dirt out of at a volume you can live with. Marshall 18 watters have that great clean with a little hair on it tone, a lot like the Hendrix R&B rhthym guitar sound, but it will get crunchier than a DR, and sooner. For rhythm playing in a band, either will be plenty loud enough and you will probably need a dirt pedal, especially if you want the DR to break up. If either of those are out of your price range, a Blues Deluxe is good sounding amp at a good price point. Also, a Princeton Reverb is only 12 watts, but for what you described, that would probably get the job done too. A PR with an efficient speaker is a pretty loud amp.

 

[RubyRae]

700 is a decent amount if you can find a nice used old fender Princeton Reverb.
You might have a lot better options between 800-900.

 

[jefrs]

I would suggest a Marshall 18 watt clone or a Deluxe Reverb. Both are roughly the same volume even though one is rated at 18 and the other 22 watts. One can be louder than the other, depending on the efficiency of the speaker in it. The DR cleans are legendary, but they are hard to get any dirt out of at a volume you can live with. Marshall 18 watters have that great clean with a little hair on it tone, a lot like the Hendrix R&B rhthym guitar sound, but it will get crunchier than a DR, and sooner. For rhythm playing in a band, either will be plenty loud enough and you will probably need a dirt pedal, especially if you want the DR to break up. If either of those are out of your price range, a Blues Deluxe is good sounding amp at a good price point. Also, a Princeton Reverb is only 12 watts, but for what you described, that would probably get the job done too. A PR with an efficient speaker is a pretty loud amp.

The "18 watt" Marshall is a knock-off dead-ringer clone of the 17 watt WEM - both are 17 watts because they both use the identical same Mullard standard 17 watt circuit.

Do check valve specs?
The EL84 is an odd valve with more gain than is typical for an OP bottle, it was designed to be cathode/self-biased, so you don't get more power by grid-biasing it.
Typical output of a pair of 6V6 p-p, grid-biased is around 10 watts. The PR's 12 watts.
Max Wa rating of a GE-6V6GTA is 10 Watts, a Brimar 6V6G/GT will run to Wa=14W, as will the infamous JJ-6V6S.
This is a limiting factor and tries to tell us that maybe 28 watts is possible in p-p but it is not because part of the time one of the bottles is shut off. You cannot get a quart out of a pint pot.
Wa is the maximum power the anode can dissipate, it is not an operating value, the amp must be run below this, below half that value is normal or you do not get a voltage swing, just a red-plated valve.

As it happens the modern Marshall 18W HW is noticeably quieter (less projection) than my old WEM at gig setting (due to speaker and/or box?). Both will happily gig alongside 30W and 50W combos, PA, 300W bass and drummer.

 

[printer2]

I have used the Super-Sonic 22 and it is a very nice amp, well suitable for small gigs.

However I seriously doubt whether you can get "22 watts" out of a pair of 6V6 valves.
You can just get "17 watts" out of the more powerful EL84
EL84 are "5.7 watt" valves, so in p-p they run to 3 x 5.7 = 17 (nominal)
6V6 are "4.5 watt" valves and run to 14 watts in p-p
Both have limiting factors of 12 watts anode dissipation(Wa), at which point they melt. It is possible to push them close to this point but not continuously (hence getting "46 watts" out of the olde AC30/6). So 24 watts is as much as as a pair of these valves will take, and they sound plain nasty (but not for long) being driven this hard.
As a comparison: the Marshall 18W (which is "17 watts" is a far nicer sounding amp than the Marshall 22W.

The Super-Sonic 22 is a great little amp whatever its output really is.

6V6GT is a 5.5W tube as compared to the EL84 5.7W, not much difference.

(link removed)

While the 6V6 and the EL84 are both rated at 12W dissipation the 6V6 has a bigger plate and bottle size, it is a bit more robust than the EL84, who knows how conservative each tube is rated?

 

[printer2]

The EL84 is an odd valve with more gain than is typical for an OP bottle, it was designed to be cathode/self-biased, so you don't get more power by grid-biasing it.

It was designed with low grid signal requirements, does not matter if it is cathode or fixed bias. Even with a 6V6, fixed bias only adds a watt or so, not much to write home about.

 

[RockerDuck]

For inside gigs, you can't beat a DRRI. Outside, my DRRI doesn't have enough oomph to stay clean. I have a Twin I use for large outdoor stages, but a 40watt Blues Deluxe will cover both well, and it has 6l6 tubes. I sometimes use both, the DRRI and the Blues Deluxe together.

 

[Del Pickup]

FWIW my experience with my old DRRI (stock standard) was that I never had it past 5 or 6 even on a big outdoor stage. At most average sized gigs I might set it around 4 and that was plenty loud enough. I could certainly never get it to break up without an OD pedal.

I've played through several 15W Blues Juniors (again always stock standard with no mods) and they struggled to keep up with the rest of the band even when turned up full when there was little or no clean available - but it was quite a nice chunky tone at that point.

I'm sure there are all sorts of technical factors that come into it play as to why that was the case.

I now have a 15W Ampeg GVT15 head running through a 2 x 10 cab (old blue frame Eminence speaker from an old Bassman RI) and that is plenty loud enough to get some decent Fender-ish clean tones even at loud volumes.

So, as others have said the actual wattage number is only part of the equation. The choice and number of speakers/cab is just as big a factor when considering overall volume from an amp.

 

[Leep Dog]

I think a DRRI will fit the bill perfectly for the OP. Punchy amp with good power and great tone and a used one should be able to be found in your budget. Get one and play it loud and get that speaker broken in. I dig mine a lot.

 

[Teleboss]

Consider keeping the Champ and getting an ext cab 1X12 or 2X12. It'll push those and sound fuller besides. Live you'll find a dispersal of sound into the room and might not be as loud as in a small space.

The DRRI and the SS amp are both expensive but you might consider a Blues Deluxe or Blues Jr. I personally don't like them but they might work for you. More wattage but two channels and master vol.
If you're using any pedals at all the clean on both those amps is nice. And cheaper
Good luck in your choice.

I have a Blues Deluxe RI and a Blues Jr. III. They are both great amps. They handle pedals well, and both have nice reverb and decent drive for smooth breakup. The BDRI is 40w and VERY loud. It is well under $700. The Blues Jr. is loud enough for what you want, and it is under $500. The BDRI has a clean channel and a gain channel. Very versatile.

 

[WrapAround]

Consider keeping the Champ and getting an ext cab 1X12 or 2X12. It'll push those and sound fuller besides.

This is a good advice. You can also do a couple of simple tweaks if needed more out of your Champ.

 

[jefrs]

6V6GT is a 5.5W tube as compared to the EL84 5.7W, not much difference.

(link removed)

While the 6V6 and the EL84 are both rated at 12W dissipation the 6V6 has a bigger plate and bottle size, it is a bit more robust than the EL84, who knows how conservative each tube is rated?

The 6V6 is more usually given as 4.5W and the EL84 as 5W on data sheets.
In practice the EL84 does have a higher output. Not much in it and not really worth doing a bottle swap. They do sound a little different. The 6V6 is a higher quality valve, the EL84 was intended for cheap consumer products.

The 5.5W from the 6V6 GE data sheet is running at 315V. Similarly an EL84 will go up to around 7W at that kind of HT

Running the HT (B+) at higher than rated will produce more output but runs the risk of melting the anode. Most guitar amps do run these bottles higher than recommended. Watch those limiting values.

Some bottles are a little unusual in that they will run far higher than the others. The JJ-6V6S is one such that can be substituted for a 6L6GC, but only because it is really a 5881 with a "half power" 6V6 heater. It can run up to 800V or more on the HT. I seem to remember there was an EL84 rated at 7W normal operation. Bottles are funny things, but you still cannot get a quart out of a pint pot.

I get my valve data sheets from here
http://frank.pocnet.net/ :idea:

 

[bigben55]

So, how is it that Fender has been "getting" 22 watts, via the Deluxe Reverb, out if a pair of 6v6s since what, 1963?

Serious question

 

[jefrs]

So, how is it that Fender has been "getting" 22 watts, via the Deluxe Reverb, out if a pair of 6v6s since what, 1963?

Serious question

Creative marketing ploy.

The WEM Dominator, which is really about 15W (as is an AC15) was sold as "17 Watts" (since 1957), Marshall copied it and decided to "add one", hence the "18 Watt" amp. Mullard reckoned you could get 17 watts tops out of a pair of EL84, and they designed the things. You will easily discover which one goes louder, much louder, when you stick a Dominator next to a DR, just sayin' ...

If you want a real 22 watts, you need a pair of 6L6 in there.

 

[Chiogtr4x]

I have a (1999) Blues Jr.- just serviced, @ 14 watts, and my '68 DR is putting out 20 watts.

I actually gig much more with the BJ as it is lighter (12-13 lbs less) and has an Emi Neo Lil' Texas 120 watt speaker in it- which I swear seems to double the amp's clean volume potential. I always run it clean and then use OD's for dirt/boost. Perfect amp for me, stick a mic on it for festival stuff...

 

[printer2]

So, how is it that Fender has been "getting" 22 watts, via the Deluxe Reverb, out if a pair of 6v6s since what, 1963?

Serious question

High voltage, they dropped the OT impedance to 6.6k and use fixed bias, bias more into Class AB than A. A watt here, a half a watt there, it starts adding up. Not that it makes much difference in the output level between a 15W and a 20W amp.