.022 cap vs .047 tone cap?

[paulfury]

Hi all,

I'm about to rewire my Tele with some CS Nocasters in the JD wiring scheme (with a no load pot as well) but I do use my tone pot sometimes, and wondered about preferences for tone cap value - specifically .022 vs.047? I'm not about to start the whole PIO/mylar debate again;-p just wondered about the pros and cons of these values - any thoughts?

Cheers all,

Paul

 

[moonshiner]

.047 will be "darker" in the full off position...

 

[jefrs]

The time constant of the RC of the tone pot in series with the cap is simply the resistance times the capacitance i.e.
250k x 47nF = 250E+03 x 47E-09 = 0.01175 seconds
250k x 22nF = 250E+03 x 22E-09 = 0.0055 seconds (almost exactly half)
However -
125k x 47nF = 0.0058 second.
strictly speaking this formula applies to RC in series with the signal generator, not parallel with the pickup as in the guitar, however the effect it is near enough for demonstration purposes (tau = RC)

But, and here's the big thing, the tone control doesn't begin working (audible) until it gets below ~100k
50k x 22nF = 1µs
25k x 47nF = 1µs
what this is showing us is that the control on the tone pot range crosses over and covers the same degree of treble cut right down until we get to mud
I think you can see 2k x 22nF = 1k x 47nF (approx)

It is also important to remember that the pickup inductance has a very significant affect on the tone. It is an Inductance-Capacitance-Resistance (LCR) circuit, further complicated by the fact that the pickup has a magnetic core, is a generator, and it also has an impedance. This makes is difficult to model but as our component choices are limited, it is simple to experiment.

 

[Teleterr]

If you put in a 22 and its not enough you can just add another in parallel to get the 47

 

[jefrs]

.047 will be "darker" in the full off position...

It will be, but do you use the 0 full-mud position.

I have experimented with a fixed 820R to 1k2 in series with the cap to hold it off just above the mud. I do this with a Varitone, but there are a few occasions when I do want mud on the tone control, so...

 

[Teleterr]

But, and here's the big thing, the tone control doesn't begin working (audible) until it gets below ~100k

I can hear mine w the tiniest turn leaving well over 100K.For that matter the no load comes on at 250K and you can hear when its switched in.

 

[Teleterr]

Also w each cap value the part of the frequency response curve where it stays flat changes, so w super small cap you can kill say above 10,000 hertz , but even all the way down nothing below that will be effected.

 

[jefrs]

If you put in a 22 and its not enough you can just add another in parallel to get the 47

+1

Caps /add/ in parallel (in series they combine like parallel resistors)

Values to try
100nF
47nF
33nF
22nF
10nF

I try to choose a value to give a usable range rather than consider the mud position. Don't forget you probably have a full range of tone controls on the amp. I like to set up the amp with the tone rolled off a little and maybe half volume, that allows me to turn-up at the guitar.

 

[moonshiner]

It will be, but do you use the 0 full-mud position.

I have experimented with a fixed 820R to 1k2 in series with the cap to hold it off just above the mud. I do this with a Varitone, but there are a few occasions when I do want mud on the tone control, so...

None of my tele's have tone pots... I use 51 Broadcaster blender wiring with dark circuit with .047 caps... So...... yes..

 

[gypsyseven]

.047 for me at least...or maybe even a .1

 

[sjtalon]

The cap is a tool the pot uses. If you want a subtle tone change from about 7-5 to 0 then you may want to try the .022µF. If you want it more aggressive and darker right away, .047.

I don't use the tone much myself ( usually only when doing rhythm with the neck) so I like just a tad of darkness. I have one guitar with a .015, otherwise all have .022.

I have a guitar with Nocasters and being that they aren't that shrill ( like a Original Vingtage Tele bridge is) I find the .022 works GREAT.

The nice thing about a Tele is you can leave the control plate up and try a few different values with jumper wires.

 

[paulfury]

Thanks all for your thoughts - this forum is a wealth of info, as always. Just ordered one of each (sprague orange drop) plus .01uf one I need for the JD schema - gonna rig up some flyinh leads so I can test them both and see what seems best.
Nocasters came today - just waiting for the pots and the superswitch to arrive and I'll be rewiring asap!
Cheers all,
Paul

 

[Duke]

I run a .015 Vitamin Q in my teles. It still knocks off more treble than I ever need to.

Don't take anyone's word for it though as tone is pretty subjective. I would advise you to get a couple alligator clips and 6 or caps of various values and try them out. You could probably easy try all six in an hour. Eliminate the ones you don't like until you found your favorite.

 

[donh]

Don't take anyone's word for it though as tone is pretty subjective. I would advise you to get a couple alligator clips and 6 or caps of various values and try them out. You could probably easy try all six in an hour. Eliminate the ones you don't like until you found your favorite.

THIS.

Please be aware that the point at which a .047 rolls off the highs is approximately one octave below where a .022 does, and a .1 is about another octave below a .047. And a .015 is about a half-octave up from a .022.

So larger caps roll off more highs in two directions at once!

Certainly a reason to experiment

 

[Webfoot]

For the last year I had a .047 in my tele... last night I took it out and went back to the stock .022.... liked the stock .022 more. But wait another six months and I may change my mind again.

 

[Duke]

THIS.

Please be aware that the point at which a .047 rolls off the highs is approximately one octave below where a .022 does, and a .1 is about another octave below a .047. And a .015 is about a half-octave up from a .022.

So larger caps roll off more highs in two directions at once!

Certainly a reason to experiment

I have no idea about the roll-off formula. I just went with my ear. So when you're at the highest high....what other direction can you roll-off beside down?

 

[Tele-phone man]

It will be, but do you use the 0 full-mud position.

I have experimented with a fixed 820R to 1k2 in series with the cap to hold it off just above the mud. I do this with a Varitone, but there are a few occasions when I do want mud on the tone control, so...

I do the same, but with 10k to 15k, and permanently in series with the cap. I have never had use for a full-mud setting, and I like my tone control to have a wide sweet spot. I prefer .022 uF caps.

I recently changed a cap on a guitar and made a cool mistake. I replaced a broken .022 cap with what I thought was the same, but I mis-read it. The cap I put in was 2.2nF, or .0022uF. When the control was turned all the way down, it was the coolest tone, not bassy at all, but with an interesting mid-range emphasis. My next experiment is to use a pan pot (or a linear 500k pot) to go from a .022 cap at one end, and the 2.2nF at the other end, with center being "full" treble, so that I can have both caps on one control.

 

[Teleterr]

The cap determines where the frequency response curve will be flat w the T all the way down. With normal value caps that's pretty low , but you hit where it flattens out in the mids, because your cap was so tiny.

 

[nic'o'caster]

My personal preference goes for .047 in a Tele. I play mainly clean in bright Fender amps and tone seems better when I roll off a little bit the tone control with .047 than a lot with .022. I've also figured out that .033 were the good compromise, but it turned out it was not.

 

[donh]

I have no idea about the roll-off formula. I just went with my ear. So when you're at the highest high....what other direction can you roll-off beside down?

You ever get to Ohio, please stop by and I'll draw you pictures!