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.022 cap vs .047 tone cap?

Discussion in 'Just Pickups' started by paulfury, Jul 22, 2011.

  1. jefrs

    jefrs Doctor of Teleocity

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    I've made some pretty weird ones myself including putting a 1.5mH coil and cap off the top of the TBX 1Meg, so that 10 gives a Varitone filter (of one) like a cocked wah.
     
  2. jefrs

    jefrs Doctor of Teleocity

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    No, I don't get the two directions at once bit.
    The roll-off is proportional to RC. Seeing as the R is variable then you will get the same roll-off with a 22nF as you will with a 47nf (at half the resistance setting) - untill you get very low down on the pot, near mud and full mud. When the pot is at 10 the cap whatever value is effectively out of circuit.
     
  3. donh

    donh Tele-Afflicted

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    a single cap rolls off at 6db per octave from it's active point (knee, in the parlance)

    move the knee down an octave, and you will roll off the upper octave of your guitar an additional 6db at max roll-off, plus you have started the roll-off one octave lower

    /it's *science*, folks!
     
  4. Teleterr

    Teleterr Friend of Leo's

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    It was your novel use of direction to mean way that threw me off at least. The lowest and the starting point are both down it would seem.
     
  5. Duke

    Duke Tele-Meister

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    Born and raised in Ohio bro...and thanks for the put down. Seems others don't get the two-direction thing either. Please make pictures for them too. I'll be in Ohio for a week starting July 31, post your address and I'll stop by to check out your artwork. :p
     
  6. jefrs

    jefrs Doctor of Teleocity

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    Plot the time constant RC for sample values of R on the pot It's a linear function but the pot should be log. 2 x 22nF ≈ 47nF
    i.e. Plot 2Rx22nF vs Rx47nF and you will get the same curve for all practical purposes.
    i.e. you will get the same frequency cut but at different points on the knob. Where you do hear a difference is where R -> 0 (tends to zero). 'cos 47nF goes lower frequency than 22nF. The time constant t is seconds F = 1/t, but this is not the cut-off frequency - that is complicated by the vol pot, the pickup and the load.

    Now with a 47nF nothing much happens until the VR is reduced to <80k, this is around 7 on a Log 250k, the same cut-off will occur on a 22nF at <160k, which is around 8 on a Log 250k pot. Same difference.

    The formula F = (1 / 2piRC) doesn't really apply because the RC is in parallel with the load (it should be in series) and the pickup /is/ an inductor/generator, but it is near-enough. The cut is proportional to RC which is even easier to crank numbers on.

    That's what happens.But seeing as a log pot is really 3 or 4 linear tracks sewn end to end, and we have to use "preferred values", the calculations are academic, just swap caps until you get something you like.
     
  7. sjtalon

    sjtalon Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    .022 cap vs .047 tone cap

    When it's all said and done, try this:
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Duke

    Duke Tele-Meister

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    Bravo! Well said...and shown.
     
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  9. Gypsyblue

    Gypsyblue Former Member

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    I use .022 tone caps in every electric guitar I own. Sprague Orange Drops, Mallory 150 or Hovlands. They all sound the same in a guitar. No point in spending extra.

    I prefer .022 because it leaves more mids in the guitar signal when I turn the tone control down.

    Easier to find that "Wah Wah pedal set to its sweet spot" tone.

    Great Clapton Woman one too.
     
  10. paulfury

    paulfury TDPRI Member

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    Thanks for the thoughts, all, much appreciated as always. I've got all the bits on order now, apart from some copper tape for shielding - decided I'm gonna go the whole hog while the guitar is disassembled. Think I might end up ordering a reissue vitamin Q in whatever value I prefer just to try it out - I've wasted more money than that on musical odds and ends before;-p
    Cheers all
    Paul
     
  11. Duke

    Duke Tele-Meister

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    Paul, you can get aluminum tape at the hardware. It's used on heating ducts. It's a lot cheaper at about $5 a roll and works great. I just did my Tele with it last week with excellent results. I have enough to do a few more guitars as needed.
     
  12. pete_lecaster

    pete_lecaster TDPRI Member

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    Well, except its not...
    With a 250k pot there is some leakage, so the cap you use affects the sound even in the 10 position. I just changed a .022 for an .047 in a strat and it affects the sound in all positions towards a duller or darker sound, great for very bright guitars, but not good in that particular strat. Also the "sweet spot" is no longer there with the .047, I got this "woman" tone on the bridge pickup with the .022. Great sound!

    I suppose if you want less leakage, either get a no leakage pot or increase the value to a 500k pot.

    Im going to try .010s and the idea of a 500k linear with two caps sounds like a good thing. Then you can experiment with two values and keep them in the guitar for a while. Who knows maybe you´ve got two amps that "like" different things. Or two bands. Or whatever...

    Experimentation is good and is easy to do on a telecaster, a little less easy on a strat.

    You really do want a useful tonecontrol! I use it all the time.
     
  13. Guitaryellow

    Guitaryellow Tele-Meister

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    Mullard cap 0.047, very sweet.
    I tried a dozen to get the balance I wanted.
     
  14. user34603

    user34603 Tele-Meister

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    ....what did you say in plain English? The fellow asked about .047 vs. .022 capacitors and I believe he wants to know the sound differences.... not electronics.
     
  15. kingvox

    kingvox Tele-Meister

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    For how simple it is to change out the cap, I would just devote an afternoon (or the end of a day) to experimenting.

    .022 will leave more treble in the signal than an .047. But to really understand the difference, you have to experiment with it yourself and hear it.

    Personally, I use lower value caps, like an .010uF or a .012uF. I also get the cheapest caps I can find now and prioritize their value in uF over brand or material.

    On my Strat, I've also gone to "50's wiring" where the tone is wired to the output of the volume instead of the input. You do lose volume as you turn the tone pot down and that really bothers some people, but for how I use it, it works for me and I can't use 'modern' wiring anymore.

    I'd just grab a handful of different values, ranging from .1uF to .01uF, try them out and see what you like. They all sound different, as the frequency that they begin to filter out noise is different in each cap. So a "lighter" cap will not sound the same as a "darker" cap if you turn it down more. It will fundamentally sound different in every position and you won't be able to get the same sounds out of two different caps.

    For most people it's a matter of preference, and you'll probably settle -- with some testing -- on a value that sounds best to your ears.

    EDIT: Specifically for .047uF vs. .022uF: I actually like .047uF more in some cases, although I find the useable range is greatly diminished. On neck pickups, I really like how .047uF caps sound with the tone knob at 7-9. Below that it becomes pretty much unuseable for me, but you will not get the same sound out of a .022uF cap if you simply turn it down more.

    There's nothing wrong with having a more limited range on the tone knob. With a .01uF cap I turn it down quite a bit, although turning it down just a little produces some nice sounds. You could say this is a more "full range," but if you're not getting the sound you want -- like the sound of a .047uF cap turned down to 7 or 8 -- it doesn't matter.

    When you audition the caps, give it some time. Play with different effects, if you use effects, play clean...really give them a fair shot. And try the tone knob in all positions and see what you like best. Even if you find you don't use the .047uF cap below 7, for example, you might like the tone more overall.

    Having 'useable tones' throughout the full sweep of the tone pot isn't much use if you don't like any of the tones.
     
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  16. LutherBurger

    LutherBurger Poster Extraordinaire

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    I did that recently by clipping a second .022uF in and out of the circuit, parallel to the .022uF that was already there (for a total of .044uF -- close enough to .047 for me), and listening at various tone knob positions.

    I learned that I prefer one .022uF.
     
  17. 24 track

    24 track Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I built this to eliminate any debate over the tone cap debate and allow me to HEAR what is going on with the sound or tone range Im looking for, or the composition debate etc. it works beautifully and allows me to test different cap values for MY best result

    P1011397.JPG P1011399.JPG
     
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  18. cabra velha

    cabra velha Tele-Afflicted Ad Free Member

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    try a .033 (I did and I liked it).
     
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  19. WetBandit

    WetBandit Friend of Leo's

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    I reckon this is what you would call "outboard" mud...

    maxresdefault.jpg
     
  20. Middleman

    Middleman Friend of Leo's

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    A long time ago, when I had the time to experiment, I put a .022, .033 and .047 in all 3 of my telecasters. I ended up with one of each in various guitars but a .047 in the blackguard. It's really a "put it in and test it" kind of endeavor.
     
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