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Zinsser BIN under black lacquer? & other finish questions

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by appar111, Mar 10, 2009.

  1. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ohio
    I'll be doing another telecaster project in a couple weeks (single bridge humbucker, strat hardtail bridge, no routing at all for neck pickup, so no need for a pickguard), and I'm going to be finishing it with this:

    [​IMG]

    Would Zinsser BIN Primer (shellac based) be ok to use under black lacquer paint?

    Here's my plans for the finish (alder tele body):

    1. Raise the grain & knock it back down w/ 220, then 320 (do this twice)
    2. Zinsser spray shellac & sand w/ 220 & 320
    3. Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer & sand w/ 220 & 320 (2-3 coats)
    4. Primer coat (Zinsser BIN) & sand w/ 320 & possibly 600
    5. Black Lacquer coat (as thin as I can get away with)

    Then just let it cure, which shouldn't take too long w/ Rustoleum black lacquer. I used it on a test scrap and it hardens up quick and seems to be really durable.

    Anything else I'm missing? I'm getting better at the finishing, but this time, I want to use nothing but stuff from the local mom & pop shop for all the finishing.
     

  2. Chris Leger

    Chris Leger Banned

    921
    May 1, 2008
    New Hampshire
    I don't know what kind of wood you're finishing, but my take would be to apply sealer, sand to 600, color it with your black, then go over with clear lacquer.
     

  3. bingy

    bingy Friend of Leo's

    BIN is formulated to block stains...it may even say on the can "not for use as a whole primer".
    I know shellac is used as an undercoat...but the heavy amount of pigment in the BIN white pigmented shellac makes it a poor whole surface primer.
     

  4. Chris Leger

    Chris Leger Banned

    921
    May 1, 2008
    New Hampshire
    Wait - are you going to be storing this guitar on your patio?
     

  5. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ohio

    Sealer meaning the shellac, or the sanding sealer?

    The black is already gloss, so would it need clear lacquer over top of it?

    It will be an alder tele body.
     

  6. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ohio
    I think that technically, with the black lacquer, it wouldn't even need a primer coat. I just want a bit of white undercoat so that when it wears, it shows a bit of that white underneath before getting to the bare wood (seen too many cool black relic teles & strats lately).
     

  7. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ohio

    LOL, Chris!

    No, but it's going to be a rough & tumble guitar-- no babying this one! I've tried various takes on a black bar chair or windsor chair type finish before with not much success. This time I thought I'd get the right paint for the job (duh! Should've done that before!).
     

  8. Chris Leger

    Chris Leger Banned

    921
    May 1, 2008
    New Hampshire
    I assume you are finishing a piece of wood.

    Forget all that stuff you listed above.

    I will also assume you already bought a can of Rustoleum and you won't switch for something better. In that case:

    Apply sanding sealer (e.g. Deft, Watco, etc.)

    Sand back to 600, apply your black lacquer, then clear over it (I'd do 6 coats.)

    Then you'll have a nice black guitar.

    I don't know why you want to mess around with shellacs & sealing primers and such. Is this knotty pine or something?
     

  9. Chris Leger

    Chris Leger Banned

    921
    May 1, 2008
    New Hampshire
    OK, just saw your most recent reply...

    Want a really durable finish? Then (God help you) do what the other guy over in the other thread is doing, and use catalysed car poly. You could drive your guitar down a salty Michigan highway, and the finish should hold up very nicely.
     

  10. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ohio
    So the shellac and BIN stages I listed aren't necessary for this? That's actually good to know. I'm going for a very basic, simple finish that will let the wood resonate. Everyone says that the prep is the key to a good finish, so I wanted to handle this like I would if I were finishing a table or a chair.

    I'll still raise the grain & knock it back down before the sanding sealer stage.
     

  11. Chris Leger

    Chris Leger Banned

    921
    May 1, 2008
    New Hampshire
    The finish you want is black lacquer. As practised by the Japanese, it's plain black lacquer, polished by hand.

    Not very durable though. If you want a black lacquer finish, do as I wrote above, and do 2 or 3 color coats, followed by 4-6 coats of clear. That's how Gibson does it, for example.

    Seal your wood first, if you're using anything other than maple. If it's an open-pore wood, like ash, oak, mahogany, etc, then apply filler as well. Color won't matter under black lacquer.
     

  12. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ohio
    Well, I want a good hard finish. But I also want it to wear like an old bar chair-- nice & natural wear and/or dings from where my arm (or belt buckle, etc.) will rest up against it, where it will lean up against the amp or a table, etc.
     

  13. Chris Leger

    Chris Leger Banned

    921
    May 1, 2008
    New Hampshire

    Shouldn't be necessary, though I still don't know exactly what it is you're finishing.

    You can mess with the grain if you want, though that really shouldn't be necessary either, unless we're talking spruce or bamboo. Sand, seal, (fill,) sand, color, clear, sand & polish.
     

  14. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ohio
    So if I want it to really wear in, I could just do the 2-3 color coats, and either forego the clear lacquer or just do a couple coats?

    Also, with alder, I can just use Deft Lacquer Sanding Sealer and not worry about a shellac and/or BIN undercoat?
     

  15. Chris Leger

    Chris Leger Banned

    921
    May 1, 2008
    New Hampshire
    Then you want 3 coats of black under 6 coats of clear.
     

  16. Chris Leger

    Chris Leger Banned

    921
    May 1, 2008
    New Hampshire
    Re: sealer, yes.

    YES.

    Re: having it "wear in," I guess you could do that. Depends on how long you plan to keep the guitar, I suppose, and how quickly you want it to wear in.

    If you want it to look like the 5-year-old occasional furniture in the lobby at your local sushi joint, after only a few months, then I guess you can skip the clear. I wouldn't though.
     

  17. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ohio
    In my first post I said that I was going to be finishing an alder telecaster body.


    I like the fact that this finish will have alot less steps than I originally thought. Simple, cool looking, will wear in nicely.
     

  18. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ohio

    Looks like I'll be doing a few coats of black followed by 4-6 coats of clear then :) I want it to relic fairly quickly, but not if I look at it the wrong way :)
     

  19. Chris Leger

    Chris Leger Banned

    921
    May 1, 2008
    New Hampshire
    OK, well, if you think about a Gibson finish, they are not really as durable as the poly finishes that come on modern Fenders. Not even nearly.

    After a few months of playing, say, an SG or a Les Paul, you will see plenty of fine "fingernail scratches" aroudn the knobs & such. The area at the top of the guitar where your right forearm rests will start to look a little dull (most noticeable on their black guitars, by the way.)

    After a few years, you may start to see the finish wearing through to bare wood in certain areas on the back of the neck, depending on how you play, if you're a "thumb over" kind of guy, etc.

    I would suggest to you that this is the type of finish you should aim for. If you want it all to happen faster, then use fewer coats of clear.

    But yes, you can dispense with all the Zinsser stuff, etc. I missed the part about using alder, sorry. For that, yes, you are correct, all you need is Deft lacquer sanding sealer.

    Your black will cover mostly everything. It is a very forgiving finish. The clear on top is to give it some depth, and some protection, and to enable you to level the finish through sanding & polishing without having to worry about compromising your color coats.
     

  20. appar111

    appar111 Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    42
    Mar 8, 2006
    Ohio
    Thanks for the advice, Chris!

    For the clear coats of lacquer (same brand-- Rustoleum), how long should I give it to cure before sanding it? Also, what grit should I use for the sanding of the clear, and should I wetsand?
     

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