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Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

Why the difference in value?

Discussion in 'Vintage Tele Discussion Forum (pre-1974)' started by Chick-N-Picker, Jul 2, 2015.

  1. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    John, the issue of the originality of necks exists when dealing with those high dollar vintage Les Pauls, too. (;^) When big bucks are involved, anything is suspect.
     

  2. 24 track

    24 track Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Nov 6, 2014
    kamloops bc
    I guess these were the first years that had the PAF's in the LP also the first years of custom finish sunbursts, prior it was all black or gold top lets not forget gibson was carving the tops of LP's and telies, no-casters and broadcasters and esquires were planks (at that time) as fender was assembly-lining and cookie cutting them as well the market was flooded with early fender guitars , Fender was trying to get schools to buy them economically to teach slide guitar and also to be electric spanish guitars for country music. and prior 58 Gibson had P90's , the humbuckers were quieter and more powerful than the single coils.also My time line may be off but around this time I believe gibson had an optional of a stop bridge/tailpeice or a trapeze bridge
    Fender also used lap-steel pickups on Telies bridge positions in the original designs,
    early teles also had a deep compound neck radius that was to some extent mimic a violin neck only to scale.
    if I am wrong here some please correct me.
    It boiled down to a short production run for the 58-63 LP's and collectibility for the LP and the now rarity of the early fenders.
     

  3. xtrajerry

    xtrajerry Doctor of Teleocity

    I have no idea how many cherry burst LP's were sold because that's what Jimmy page was playing in the 70s but I literally know a half dozen guys that bought one because of that when I was coming up.. How many top performers are using them these days?
     

  4. deytookerjaabs

    deytookerjaabs Friend of Leo's

    Jun 5, 2015
    Nashville
    As a fairly heavy player for about 20 years now who also taught/worked in a vintage guitar store for 7 years, where are these magical guitars and why have I never held one in my hand? I've played 50s/60s era Gibsons, Fenders, Gretsch, Rickenbackers, etc.. I did an apprenticeship for lutherie and played all sorts of exotics as well. Usually those I think sound the best can be reduced to the sum of their parts simply by observation. I guess I've just never found the "holy grail" or am just too darn pragmatic.
     

  5. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    24 track wrote: "I guess these were the first years that had the PAF's in the LP also the first years of custom finish sunbursts"

    The first Les Pauls that carried PAF humbuckers were Gold top Standards and black Customs. Teh PAF was introduced in 1957, IIRC.
    The sunburst ...or 'bursts as they are called...Les Paul Standards were introduced in i1958, and the sunburst was not a custom color....it was the standard finish for the L.P. Standard from 1958 through 1960. Any finish other than the suburst was a 'custom' color....and those are few in number...with all cherry red being a finish that is known to have been used on a very small number of guitars.

    xtrajerry wrote: "I have no idea how many cherry burst LP's were sold".
    I don't know the exact number, either. The number 1852 comes to mind, though. Tom Wheeler's book has selected shipping totals from the Gibson log books. Those figures show 1712 sunburst L.P. Standards shipped form '58-60. 1958....434 shipped, 1959...643 shipped, and in 1960 there were 635 shipped.
    deytookerriabbs, I don't know how you have not held a 'special' guitar in your hands. Not every old guitar I have held is special....some are not much of anything except an old guitar. Every once in a while, though, something special comes along. I have a feeling, based on over 5 decades of 'sensing' guitars while playing, that the same is true of new guitars. Once in a while, a special one comes along. IT seems like being in Chicago would allow one to get their hands on a number of vintage things....and a special one would make itself known.
     

  6. deytookerjaabs

    deytookerjaabs Friend of Leo's

    Jun 5, 2015
    Nashville
    Honestly, I got nothing. Maybe I'm a debbie downer, :lol:. Definitely nicer ones but that's usually just due to the work done on the neck or the general balance of it, at least for electric guitars. Definitely some acoustics that struck my ear, but they weren't the traditional ones by any means. I want to play a guitar that's a cut above the rest, in all seriousness. So many times I'd pick up a vintage gem and, to my ears, it would sound like a cheapo. And, of course, with music stores you've got 8 month old set of 9 gauge strings on there makes them all sound like duds. I had a chambered Les Paul Classic that really impressed me but when I got my hands on same model later on it still was just as resonant!
     

  7. slimdave

    slimdave TDPRI Member

    78
    Mar 8, 2013
    Barcelona
    To each their own. Modern guitars have a different voice than old guitars. Some like the booming tone of new guitars and some like the midrange of vintage instruments. You just have to find whatever you prefer. But differences are there, you just have to train your ear.
     

  8. London John

    London John Banned

    132
    Mar 5, 2014
    London
    Hi Dave, sorry I missed this.

    The Broadcaster at Ten Guitars is a Clive Brown refin, but they don't include that little pearl in the description, which is curious given they've been told by many, including the guy who did the work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015

  9. slimdave

    slimdave TDPRI Member

    78
    Mar 8, 2013
    Barcelona
    John, thanks for pointing out this littke detail. Didn't know it. I'm not in the market for a broadcaster, but if I was I'd like to know this little details on a 80k guitar ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015

  10. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    $80K?? Refinned.......maybe the market has moved?
     

  11. London John

    London John Banned

    132
    Mar 5, 2014
    London
    No, from my recent experience in looking for a Broadcaster, this is priced at the top end for an original guitar.

    They're just holding out for a sucker to show up.

    I think this is the third time they've had the guitar up for sale. They put it up for short periods and then delist it when it doesn't shift.

    Again, they are fully aware that the guitar is a refin. Clive has confirmed to them that he refinished the guitar, but they continue to describe it as original.
     

  12. String Tree

    String Tree Doctor of Teleocity

    Dec 8, 2010
    Up North
    Two words: Jimmy Page. He bought his '59 from Joe Walsh.
    Turns out Gibson's Pick Guard and Pick-up Ring Supplier ran out of Black Plastic and subbed Cream.
    And so began the Cork-Sniffing.

    Also, those years had the fewest Made so they are the rarest.

    Lotta fakes out there so be careful.
     

  13. jvin248

    jvin248 Friend of Leo's

    Apr 18, 2014
    Near Detroit, MI
    One of the famous used guitar retailers (Dave's?) did a youtube show or couple of shows on the LP and maybe Teles from this magical classical collector era. I thought it very interesting how Gibson changed small details in the lat 50s that contributed to the 57/58 most collectible version. I tried finding the videos but my search-engine-ninja-skills failed me atm.

    Value of those guitars are from the players who made them famous - and only as long as those player's fans are still alive and collecting memorabilia will those guitars hold their value.
     

  14. 24 track

    24 track Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Nov 6, 2014
    kamloops bc
    Thanks Wally I knew I was in the ball park , not completely clear on the details
     

  15. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    IIRC, the 1959 is the most valuable of the ''bursts" due to exactly what you mentioned..the players that played 1959's. The 1960 went to a smaller neck, and that is one physical difference as I understand it from the earlier 'bursts and goldtops. Jimmy Page's 1960 is definitely a valuable guitar, but I don't think 'regular market' 1960 'bursts command the same money as does the 1959....and the '58's don't bring what a '59 will, as I understand it. I am still waiting for any real 'burst to show up on my doorstep....as if, right? (;^)
     

  16. charlie chitlin

    charlie chitlin Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    55
    Mar 17, 2003
    Spring City, Pa
    Clapton burst on the scene like Halley's Comet and became "God."
    What was he playing?
    Everybody needed one after that...Green, Bloomfield, Page...
    Hendrix burst (har!) on the scene in a similar way, but he played any old Strat.
    That instrument, more than any other, represents a major moment in musical history.
    AND...they're freakin' beautiful!
    Burst finish, carved top, beautiful wood...
    Tele's are cool, but they're made on a bandsaw and look like they were finished like grandmas kitchen cabinets.
    They were a working man's instrument...therein lies their beauty.
    It's why a Model T would never achieve the value of an Auburn, even if they were made in equal numbers.
    Like any collectible thing...most of it is emotional.
     

  17. London John

    London John Banned

    132
    Mar 5, 2014
    London
    There's very little premium paid for differences in 'bursts between late '58 and early '60, other than for three factors.

    Flame and then colour and then weight.

    The necks on these guitars are all over the place, so it's not related to neck shape. Some early '60's I've played have the largest necks of all, including on '58's. Weights are likewise all over the place.

    The old phrase "flame is the game" is not an accident.

    However, if ALL other attributes are equal, people will pay very marginally more for a '59.
     

  18. strat a various

    strat a various Tele-Afflicted

    May 9, 2008
    Texas
    Supply ... and demand. Every question regarding value (cost really) should just be about supply and demand, and specifically, about demand. The question amounts to, "Why do so many people with lots of money want that guitar?"

    That answer almost always has to do with perceptions. What famous players are using, and have used, that guitar or a similar one? Association. Players and collectors want something in common with well known players, and since talent rarely covers that, owning a guitar that makes them feel kinship with their favorite guitar heroes does it.

    Why is (****) guitar worth more than (****) guitar? It's more in demand, more desirable to more people with enough disposable income ... because more folks with money want to feel like the famous owners of guitar (A) than guitar(B). It's not because of the quality or design directly, but indirectly? Yeah, the famous players may have chosen one model over an other for quality and design reasons, so you can follow that trail, if you like, but it's indirect. Buyers want what their idols play, and I guess right now, the well heeled follow and worship Les Paul players more than Tele players.
     

  19. Mike Eskimo

    Mike Eskimo Doctor of Teleocity

    Nov 9, 2008
    Detroit

    This is THE reason.



    Why do double short horn black Danelectros go for more than other, more rare vintage Danelectro's ?

    Jimmy Page

    Who started the pre-war Martin flattop craze ?

    CSN(Y)

    Super Strats w/ Floyd Rose's ruled the 80's because...?

    EVH


    Emulation/hero worship drove it all.
     

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