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Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

Why so few threads about Squiers?

Discussion in 'Squier Tele Forum' started by teletubby63, Mar 2, 2013.

  1. plymman

    plymman Tele-Meister

    482
    Dec 6, 2011
    plymouth uk
    I agree with what you said but you are wrong about the Joyo. A boutique pedal builder literally bought a batch of Joyo pedals, repainted the boxes and covered the circuit board with nail varnish/goo to cover up the Joyo name. They sold for $250 and gear heads were cueing up to buy them, apparently they were as close to a dumble tone as you can get.

    Now here's the kicker, people noticed the similarity to Joyo pedals and started to take them apart. Lo and behold, once they removed the goo from the circuit board, the Joyo name and model number was clear for all to see. I know far eastern pedal makers often clone boutique pedals but in this case that's not what happened. The boutique builder literally just re badged Joyo's products. I won't link the boutique builder but if you Google a bit you'll find hundreds of posts about this with disassembly pictures. It caused outrage at the time and pretty much finished off that pedal builder, the used prices plummeted and Joyo finally got the recognition they deserved.

    It raises a strong psychological point about branding though. How can a pedal go from 'ok for the money' to the 'best drive pedal available and the closest to the elusive dumble tone' with just a link of paint, some nail polish and a whole lot of snake oil?
     

  2. Gnobuddy

    Gnobuddy Friend of Leo's

    Sep 15, 2010
    British Columbia
    Exactly! And this raises the question: if you took a good Squier guitar - my Squire Standard Strat, say, which has the same nut width and body thickness as a Fender Strat - and you put Fender decals on it, and sold it as a Fender Custom Shop guitar, how many people would praise it to the skies for its wonderful goodness?

    As for Joyo, I must have been living under a rock or something, because I only very recently heard of Joyo pedals for the first time. My introduction came through a YouTube demo video I stumbled across purely by chance. After a couple of generic distortion pedal videos I found a demo video of a $40 Joyo American Sound pedal recorded straight into a computer DAW - no guitar amp:



    To me, the sound quality in that demo is jaw-droppingly good for a solid-state device. Close your eyes and listen - do you hear a solid-state amp, or a tube amp?

    That Joyo really sounds "tubey" to me - not 100%, maybe, but close enough to inspire the same tingle of pleasure that I get from listening to a nice Fender tube amp. It's got a lot of the same sweetness to the clean tone as a Blackface Fender.

    After listening to that demo, I was shocked to realise that (to my ears) the inexpensive $40 Joyo amp emulator pedal is better sounding than any SS amp I've ever heard, at any price, including the $1200 Quilter Micropro 200 Studio guitar amp I tried out recently. The Quilter doesn't sound anywhere near as good to my ears as the little $40 Joyo American Sound amp emulator pedal, even though it costs thirty times as much!

    So I suddenly went from never having heard of them to having a high opinion for Joyo - even if this had been the only pedal they made, I would have been impressed.

    It was only after that fact that I heard about the guy who was re-painting Joyo pedals and selling them at huge markups to the boutique crowd under a different branding and label - let's call it Breekish Flues.

    I've certainly been fooled by marketing B.S. before (cough cough Line 6 cough). I'm sure I'll be fooled by marketing B.S. again sooner or later, too.

    But at least in the case of the Joyo American Sound and Squier Standards I'm glad to say I recognized a good thing when I saw it.

    -Gnobuddy
     

  3. Muddslide

    Muddslide Tele-Afflicted

    Jun 28, 2008
    Gypsy Caravan
    A bunch, I'd be willing to bet.

    I'd love to see a controlled, scientificky study done on this with a big sample population of gearhead geeks like us.

    Another thing I often bring up during these types of discussions: I think there is a difference between guitars that is noticable to the individual player, and perhaps to an audience in a solo performance. And I definitely think things like wood, body size, shape, etc. make a marked difference with regards to acoustic instruments especially.

    But, again, electric guitars are (generally, leaving aside custom builds and boutique instruments) mass produced concoctions of wood and wire. There's nothing really supernatural about them

    In my opinion and experience, 99% of any audience isn't going to know or care what "brand" of guitar you are playing. Even if you tried to point it out to them--they just don't know and don't care.

    Beyond that, we should remember that once you put anything in that chain between the guitar and amp, you are losing a good deal of whatever "purity of tone" is a part of that particular instrument.

    Consider: you play your guitar through some pedals or whatever...then your guitar sits in a mix with whatever other instruments and vocals are in the band...then you go play at a club where the majority of people are there to have a good time, drink up and maybe find someone to go home and have more fun an drinks with. Most places I've played are full of lots of background noise.

    The audience doesn't give a holy poop about your amazing guitar tone.

    Mostly they just want some good, fun music. They couldn't care less (and wouldn't be able to tell the difference) whether you are playing a $200 Asian Fender knockoff or a $4000 Gibson Les Paul.

    What's more, with the ability we have these days to run serious EQ, a million effects pedals, amp and guitar modelers, etc., etc. you can actually MAKE a $200 offshore Fender knockoff sound like a vintage Gibson 335 if you want, at least in as far as anyone in the audience is going to be able to tell (or care) about any difference.

    I don't know...I hold by the adage that you should "play what you like and like what you play." If you are more comfortable and feel more like a "Serious Musician" playing certain brands of guitars in certain price ranges, more power to you. But, in a live situation, the guitar you play--what wood it's made of, what its national origin is, the price tag it carried--isn't gonna matter a fig to anyone but you and possibly a handful of gearhead geeks that might be in the audience.

    If a guitar holds tune and intonates well, feels comfortable to you and has reliable enough electronics, that's the battle right there. Everything else is just cake frosting.
     

  4. bagg

    bagg TDPRI Member

    7
    Feb 20, 2009
    Winnipeg
    Playing Thursday night. My Gibby SG (awesome guitar, a keeper) will sit on the sidelines
    while I rock my JMJM Squier Jazzmaster! My first Squier not my last.
     

  5. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    About? You explained it so well. :rolleyes:
     

  6. Gnobuddy

    Gnobuddy Friend of Leo's

    Sep 15, 2010
    British Columbia
    Great post, Muddslide. So very true, all of it.

    A while ago I bought a DVD featuring some of Eric Johnson's music. On the disc there was an interview with the man famous for being extremely nit-picky about his tone, to the point of borderline insanity. We've all heard the stories about Johnson removing the screw holding on the bottom of his Fuzz-Face, because he believed it made his tone better, or the stories about his preference for one brand of battery because it made his effects pedals sound better.

    I don't know if any of those stories are true, but Johnson admitted to having been very much a driven perfectionist through his entire career to date. But apparently Eric has grown wiser as well as older, because in the interview he talks about what he calls "musicians ears" and "audience ears".

    Basically he says musicians hear all sorts of very subtle stuff that becomes terribly important to them, while the audience hears things through "audience ears" that don't care a hoot whether your guitar features humbuckers or single-coils, ash or alder, mahogany or maple. What they want is a good song, well played, and that's it.

    The interesting thing is that Eric went on to say that for years he had obsessed over things he heard with "musicians ears", and finally realised that he actually had a lot more fun and enjoyed his music much more if he let go of that and instead listened to his own music the same way his audience did - with "audience ears" rather than "musicians ears". So with his newest project (at the time of the interview), he decided to go into it with "audience ears" and not fuss about the tiny details that used to drive him and everyone around him mad with frustration in the past.

    Even after watching that interview I would still have figured Eric Johnson would never be caught dead with his hands on a Squier. Then I stumbled across a YouTube video in which Johnson said he'd been using a cheapo solid-state Fender G-DEC amp to warm up backstage before his gigs!

    To me G-DEC's sound harsh and unpleasant, but as you can hear for yourself, truly superb guitar technique from a master musician (along with huge lashings of reverb to soften the harsh solid-state tone) can make even this amp sound bearable:


    So there you go. The ultimate tone cork-sniffer, settling for an eminently practical solution to the backstage warm-up - a budget priced digital modelling guitar amp, grotty tone and all!

    -Gnobuddy
     

  7. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 20, 2011
    Englewood, CO
    That was exactly my point when I said in a slightly off center way that some people prefer to hear with their eyes and not the ears. They thought the re-badged Joyos were better because they saw what they believed to be a custom built boutique pedal. That alone preconditioned their responses when they played through it. They expected it to be superior because of what they saw and so their ears confirmed it for them.

    In all likelihood they would have been dismissed as Chinese junk before they ever played them if they had born their own label and even though they were exactly the same pedal and sounded terrific they would not have changed their opinion. Peer pressure can have an affect on that too.

    I own a few and I try to avoid buying junk. They may or may not be the best built pedals around but they sound fine. Branding is surely a psychological issue to a certain degree and in some cases it's virtually the entire reason why people spend more than they need to in order to get the results they're looking for. I have no doubts about that at all.
     

  8. bagg

    bagg TDPRI Member

    7
    Feb 20, 2009
    Winnipeg
    "Basically he says musicians hear all sorts of very subtle stuff that becomes terribly important to them, while the audience hears things through "audience ears" that don't care a hoot whether your guitar features humbuckers or single-coils, ash or alder, mahogany or maple. What they want is a good song, well played, and that's it"

    How True.

    I wish I understood the truth in this before I spent all the cash on nit picky things
     

  9. Gnobuddy

    Gnobuddy Friend of Leo's

    Sep 15, 2010
    British Columbia
    It's interesting, isn't it, how we fool ourselves?

    Most guitarists who hear a piano think "That piano sounds good!" or "That piano doesn't sound very good". But they never wonder "Is that piano made out of maple or mahogany?", or "I wonder what brand of piano strings are on that piano?" :D

    But when it comes to the instrument we ourselves play, we delude ourselves into believing all this nonsense actually matters. For instance we may pick up a guitar and view it with deep suspicion because the top back and sides are made of myrtlewood. Myrtlewood? Sacrilege! Backs should be made of mahogany or rosewood!

    Of course the logical thing to do is to just play the thing and listen to it to see how it sounds. That's too simple to be any fun for the ego, I suppose, so we have to go and complicate it!

    -Gnobuddy
     

  10. playforfun

    playforfun Tele-Holic

    663
    Feb 25, 2013
    Luna Louisiana
    I may have been a headstock snob but it wasn't my fault. I was listening to what others were saying instead of checking stuff out for myself. OK my fault. But anyway not anymore squier guitars are the best deal out there IMO. I may be over reacting since I only have one but will never pass one again without at least trying it out. Glad I joined this site learning every day.
     

  11. thefees

    thefees Tele-Holic

    872
    Sep 8, 2010
    PA-US
    Your enthusiasm is infectious. I too bought one of those Squier Standard Strats in cherry sunburst finish limited edition. At the time I was doing a Guitar Center special with spend $499 or more and get $100 off. I had picked up a CVC Tele that I also love and was looking for something to make up the difference so I could get to the $500 mark. I couldn't find anything until I came across this cherry sunburst Squier STANDARD strat. I picked it up and played it, and knew I had to have it. So get a load of this, they were selling for $229 normal price. At the counter they took $50 off of each guitar, so I wound up paying $179. Ok so now we know about the money, now let's talk about the guitar.

    I have to disagree with you about the video comparison in only in terms of the sound from the pickups. Your real Fender sounds a lot better. Deeper, richer tones. That is the weakness in the Cherry Sunburst Squier Standard Strat. (CSSSS) The pickups have the magnets in the pole pieces instead of in the base plate. They are weak, and normally if you want more volume out of them you need to raise them up closer to the strings, BUT the problem is that the magnets being in the pole pieces have an overtone effect on the strings and it makes it impossible to tune them, or even to get them to intonate properly. So you lower them farther away and then they are so weak that they lack true deep tones. I compared them to the other 8 Squiers all Classic Vibes and the one Vintage Modified and the Standard Strat Limited Edition was the weakest lack of tone out of them all. Please listen to the video and see how thin it is. I love the guitar though.
    The answer is to change the pickups. I have a set off of a 1993 Fender Strat MIM that I plan on putting on. (The 93 got Fender Vintage Noiseless put on it)
    Now let me really talk about the guitar. I have it the way it came with the rosewood fretboard cap. There is something about this guitar and the way it plays that makes me want to say it is the best guitar I have, but I can't really say that. I bought 8 Squier Classic Vibes in 2012 when they were putting out mind blowing guitars right out of the box. I ordered them sight unseen, and didn't find one with a defect. I measured the frets by using a straight edge with a light shining from below after adjusting the truss rod to perfectly flat, and could not see one whisper of light coming from underneath.
    Every one of these I was able to get between 2/32nds and 3/32nds distance between the top of the 12th fret to the top of the 6th string without buzzing. That separates the men from the boys.
    Anyhow I hate the headstock with the broad surface, I love the Tele style instead which is what the Fender Squier Vintage Modified Strat has on it instead.
    Ok I am making this post too long. I could go on for hours. Check out the photo of the Vintage Modified with Seymour Duncan Pickups on it, with real flame maple top that I paid only $275 for special ordered brand new. I took it home and opened the factory sealed box. That one has better pickups on it. A guitar of this quality for that kind of money is totally insane. The second picture of the flame maple Strat is of my actual guitar. (It doesn't have the Sweetwater logo at the bottom) Real crazy flame maple with a Cedar body. Interesting deep tone yet bright enough due to the Les Paul style maple cap on top)
    By the way just to quiet the detractors thinking I am a newbie. I bought a 1966 Fender Telecaster that I bought new after cherry picking the whole store back in 66 and I still have it and love it. I have been playing guitar over 40 years and have 18 of them. I could talk about my Gibsons and Fenders but I just wanted to establish that I am not a kid falling in love with a newbie guitar without any merit.
     

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  12. thefees

    thefees Tele-Holic

    872
    Sep 8, 2010
    PA-US
    +111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
    You took the words right out of my mouth. I hate to say this but "on the average" the Squier CLASSIC VIBES were more accurately made than Fenders full line. I am not talking about the pickups, or input jack, I am talking about the stuff you cannot redo, like the way the body is made, or the neck, and frets etc. I can always change the pickups.
    Am I saying that you can't go over and pick up a Full line Fender guitar for a couple of grand or more and it is not as good as a Squier? NO because you can, but if you picked up 10 Fenders randomly, and 10 CV Squiers randomly ON THE AVERAGE the Squiers were more accurately made. This was the case in 2012. I rarely see them on the walls in Guitar Center anymore. They prefer to sell more expensive stuff. When doing a search in Guitar Center for a classic vibe notice the stores have them on order only for the most part.
    Check out the photo below of the neck joint on the Classic Vibe where I can't even squeeze a post it note piece of paper between the neck and the pocket seam, and then excuse me while I post the photo of a neck joint on a 1970 Fender Tele when CBS was in their full glory. :eek:

    I think one thing is worth noting here. I was in Guitar Center recently and saw the "Fender" yes full blown name Fender Modern Player Tele Plus going for $399. Interesting guitar with a mix of virtues/non virtues but it is made in China. (Maybe made in the same plant as CV's) The one I played had excellent action, but the pickups were lacking that top 10 percent that makes 90% of the difference. However having a coil tap humbucker in the bridge with coil tap, and a Strat middle pickiup, and a Tele neck pickup all told is a lot of guitar for the money.

    The one guitar I picked up and played and absolutely had to take it home with me was the Made In Japan Fender 51 Pawn Shop with a Texas Special neck pickup, and an Enforcer pickup in the bridge with split coil. This particular one played with action in the top 2% of anything that I played, and the amount of flame in the maple on the neck was crazy for a guitar that doesn't normally come with FM. The balance, tone, action all added up to a great guitar and when I saw Made In Japan on the back, I took it home. It also helped that they were running a special on them for $525 normally $849. I absolutely, absolutely love that guitar. The Enforcer pickup in the bridge has that bark that I have been looking for, for a long time. Photo below.
    PS: Not to be confused with the super cheap Squier Pawn Shop model they put out years ago with absolute junk pickups etc etc.
     

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    Last edited: May 31, 2013

  13. musicalmartin

    musicalmartin Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    69
    Aug 8, 2007
    Norfolk UK
    This is so true .
     

  14. thefees

    thefees Tele-Holic

    872
    Sep 8, 2010
    PA-US
    Interesting shootout BLINDFOLDED comparison at Andertons between Squier, Fender, and Fender Custom Shop. Notice around frame #300 he mistakes the Custom Shop with the Squier.
     

  15. ShadowChancer

    ShadowChancer Tele-Holic

    867
    Apr 14, 2012
    Central Scotland
    Bet this thread ends up an epic . . . . read on

    Beats me , we (Squire guys) and there`s a lot of us mind , have everything to celebrate . Good quality instruments at reasonable prices . End of the day , you can buy a Rolls Royce , but if you cant drive it`s a bit of a waste of time eh ? I got a Classic vibe 50s VB , blew me away , the quality is astounding , bar tuning I have done nothing to it and it`s a deffo keeper. Records well , sounds great , plays like a dream and beat this , I bought it mail order from Theomann in Europe so it was a "blind buy" no problemo . Got a VM Jazzmaster / tele , same shop same perfect condition out the box . I`m currently modifying it (purely for something to pass an hour or two and mainly because the Jazz neck pup is a nightmare anywhere near monitors (to be expected) guess what I`m changing it for ?? a classic vibe/Tonerider neck pup . To balance it all up , bought an AmericanSpecial and have spent a lot of time and effort and cash to get it to play half as good as my Squiers . Moral of my story . Squiers = more desk time doing the biz . USA job = more time on the spanners . make your own conclusions , I paid more for my USA than both my Squiers , and guess that two more Squiers would have been a better investment :rolleyes:
     

  16. puke hat roy

    puke hat roy Tele-Meister

    118
    Oct 20, 2011
    Missouri
    I have picked up three excellent Squiers on CL from young guys who bought them to learn on and then sold them to me so they could get a "real" Fender. Maybe it's a good thing there's not many threads about them. I kind of feel like a vulture though buying a great guitar on the cheap from someone who may regret selling it a little later on in their gear quest. One of the ones I got was a CV BSB for $225 in new condition. It's my #1.
     

  17. ShadowChancer

    ShadowChancer Tele-Holic

    867
    Apr 14, 2012
    Central Scotland
    Aye PHR

    I know what you mean , but "real Fender" ? , the original plan and design philosophy of the Fender Tele was an easily made simple guitar using relatively cheap materials with a mind to mass production to allow a decent price point instrument of reasonable quality to the masses . That describes my Squiers to a T (no pun intended) so to me they are the "real" Fender :D
     

  18. boris bubbanov

    boris bubbanov Telefied Ad Free Member

    If they can't tell, that satisfies me they don't know their guitars.

    The necks on these are so thin. If you're oblivious to this thinness, you're not qualified to distinguish the CV from anything. I've installed CS No-Casters in dozens of guitars, and there's more to the guitar that just the pickup.

    If you disagree, then I invite you to keep playing CVs. I sure as heck grit my teeth every time I have to play something that feels and acts that thin.
     

  19. Willie D

    Willie D Friend of Leo's

    Nov 19, 2004
    So. Illinois
    To me, it's a guitar.

    If you enjoy playing it, that's enough.

    If you paid $3500 for your guitar and playing it makes you happy, more power to ya.
    If you paid $350 and playing it makes you happy, more power to ya.
    If you paid $35 and playing it makes you happy, more power to ya.
     

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