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Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com
Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

Why Is This Happening?

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by trippercaster, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. adirondak5

    adirondak5 Wood Hoarder Extraordinaire Ad Free + Supporter

    Oct 24, 2009
    Long Island NY
    I am impatient too tripper , no biggie , just a bit more work . I would do like you already said , I would clean with spirits and thinner , the thing is sometimes you can't get a gun clean , if it is the gun . I'd definitely try on scrap after cleaning , I would try changing up your technique too , try a few light passes before going with a wet coat , give a good amount of time between coats to flash off . Its gonna be tough to find problems between compressor and gun since they are used together . Like I say , hope you find the cause sooner than later .
     

  2. Speedy454

    Speedy454 Tele-Meister

    408
    Oct 1, 2013
    Highland, IL
    How many coats of lacquer have you applied in the above photos? If your answer is one, you are applying way too thick. That will aggravate any contamination issues, which you still have.

    Are you applying a thin, tack coat, waiting a while then a thin first coat? Since lacquer melts into itself, there really isn't any reason to lay on such a thick coat.

    Put an oil/water separator right at the compressor. Then mount a second one right near where you spray from. Buy a 25' Goodyear hose, flush it with 91% alcohol or naphtha. Connect it between your second water separator/filter and your gun. Keep this hose for spraying only. Mount a disposable filter/water separator at the gun just before the regulator that is attached to the gun.

    Also, those H.F. water separator/filters usually have sintered bronze filters. The ones I bought gave me a few fish eyes. I disassembled them and cleaned them, and re cleaned my lines. Fish eyes gone.

    Test on scraps before hitting those necks again. Lay on a nice, even very thin tack coat. Wait about 10 to 15 min. Then apply your first real coat. Your first coats should be fairly thin, and should not really have the kind of gloss your photos show, even wet. I usually only shoot a wet coat on the last coat or two to get a good flow out.

    There are some really helpful spraying tips on the reranch website.
     

  3. Jfellows

    Jfellows Tele-Afflicted

    Aug 23, 2012
    Tracy, California
    There's also the chance that somehow you accidentally contaminated your can of lacquer. Something you stirred it with introduced a contaminant perhaps? When I was new at this, I used a plastic pour spout on the can to pour the lacquer into the cup, and it turned out that spout contaminated the whole can. After a few days of the same frustration you're going through, I just added some fisheye flowout to that entire can, and problem solved. Well, more like problem hidden. It wasn't worth it to me to trash most of a $50 can of lacquer when I could use the flowout to make it work again. It's frustrating to not be able to solve it and fix it "right", but at some point you have to finish this job and move on.
     

  4. orangedrop

    orangedrop Friend of Leo's

    Aug 20, 2010
    New York
    Definitely shoot on something you know is NOT contaminated to rule that out.

    No need to go through such a plethora of chemicals to clean your stuff off.

    Changing out clean towels is all that is needed.

    Any chance you would post a couple snaps of you spray rig?

    Compressor, filters, hose, regulator, etc?

    Also, is it possible your lacquer got contaminated somehow?

    If there was anything on any of the containers that could have fallen into the lacquer?

    When I get ready to do some shooting, I have a few quart glass jars that are fiercely clean.

    The lacquer gets strained into one of these, I add my 10% retarder cap the jar, gibe it a good shake and set it aside for a few hours while getting everything else set, or for the next day.

    If the lacquer needs any thinning, it gets added shortly before spraying.

    If any shaded lacquer is needed, there are some smaller jars available for this purpose.

    To have a modest supply of working quantities, containers that come from manufacturers are stripped of their labels, blown off with compressed air and wiped clean with solvent to remove any contaminants.

    The contents are then decanted into clean glass storage containers, labeled and dated.

    This makes using and handling products very easy, plus I can easily inspect for particulates in the bottles.

    The one thing to be aware of is to keep the containers in a dark place so that UV aging is not accelerated.
     

  5. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    Thanks Herb.

    I usually don't apply that much. I made a couple quick passes and waited 10 minutes. Then layed on a couple thick passes to try and see if I could flow out the spots. It just won't touch those spots. So yes, I probably aggravated the problem.

    I am going to buy the hose you mention, and just clean everything again. Can you take the seperator apart? It looked to me like it wasn't made to be disassembled. Or should I just pour solvent into it to clean it?

    After all this, I'm going to try a new gallon of LOVOC.
     

  6. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    I dipped it out with a disposable plastic cup and put it in a mason jar so it would be easier to pur into the cup. Several people in this thread have said that adding fisheye flowout will ruin your gun by contaminating it. I'm still on the fence about that.

    I am so ready to move on. I should have two finished builds by now. This is so incredibly frustrating.
     

  7. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    Tripp
     

  8. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    Thanks TDPRI

    Thanks to everyone for helping me troubeshoot this.
     

  9. Jfellows

    Jfellows Tele-Afflicted

    Aug 23, 2012
    Tracy, California

    Plastic and solvent don't always mix. It could be the cup that you used to dip caused the problem. Depending on what kind of plastic it is, it might have reacted with the solvent in the lacquer. I use a stainless steel ladle that I picked up for cheap.

    I haven't had any problem switching back and forth with the fisheye flowout in my gun, so long as you clean the gun well. But I think you said you're using one of the Harbor Freight guns, (which I use as well) and those are so cheap I always pickup a spare when they go on sale. If you're worried about that, you could use a separate gun for with/without the flowout.
     

  10. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    After using the cup, I let it sit and dry. It didn't show any signs of degradation. Didn't get soft or brittle. I should have sprung for SS utensils. As I said, if all else fails I'm going to get another gallon of lacquer.

    That is a good idea. I think mine was like 9 bucks on sale. Plus I have a 25% off coupon about to expire.
     

  11. Jfellows

    Jfellows Tele-Afflicted

    Aug 23, 2012
    Tracy, California
    Get a steel soup ladle from Wal-mart for like $5 while you're at it. Just because the plastic didn't show any degradation doesn't mean it didn't play a part. It's too cheap of a fix to overlook.

    I've been there, man! Hope you get this figured out.
     

  12. Speedy454

    Speedy454 Tele-Meister

    408
    Oct 1, 2013
    Highland, IL
    A really quick way to isolate if it is your neck contaminated or your rig is to pick up a spray can of Deft or Minwax Lacquer and see what happens. If you get fisheyes out of the rattlecan, it is the neck. If not, it is your rig. I suspect your rig.

    If you have the same cheap H.F. filter/separators I have, they are as filthy inside as their spray guns, and just as filthy inside as the A.T.D. gun set i bought last summer.

    Lacquer isn't cheap, so you need to get your stuff cleaned out and make some tests on 2' X 2' panels.

    Last but not least, Tru-Oil. Wipe 3 or 4 coats on the bare neck and call it done. More coats for a slick gloss. I'm getting where I like Tru-Oil for necks more than lacquer. The only thing I like about lacquer is since coats melt into themselves, no witness lines.
     

  13. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    This is why I love this forum. Guys like you point out solutions that make sense. Rattlecan lacquer. I should have thought of that. But I too think its the rig. I'll know for certain if I do this.

    I've never done the Tru-Oil before, but that will help me feel less discouraged by allowing me to complete these guitars.

    Thanks Speedy.
     

  14. Speedy454

    Speedy454 Tele-Meister

    408
    Oct 1, 2013
    Highland, IL
    Many on here, myself included, like the feel of tru oil on the neck over lacquer. I am finishing a body with it now, and that is more challenging. Since the coats don't melt into themselves, this finish is prone to witness lines that show between the coats or layers.

    Applying the final coat a little thick or from a spray helps significantly.

    Tru oil enhances the grain and gives a slightly darker amber tint than straight clear lacquer. Each finish has its place.
     

  15. R. Stratenstein

    R. Stratenstein Doctor of Teleocity

    Aug 3, 2010
    Loganville, Ga.
    1. Silicone compounds are sometimes used as release agents in plastic molding operations. Your plastic cup may have contaminated your lacquer.

    2. +1 on the Tru-Oil on necks. Couple of coats, knock off the gloss on the back side with some 0000 steel wool, and you'll have a great looking, fast playing, great feeling neck!

    3. I've had great success with rattle-can (specifically Minwax) lacquer; if it sprays well without fisheye, and you decide to go with the lacquer finish rather than Tru-Oil, consider just finishing out the neck with the rattlecans. You'll still get a great finish that will buff to whatever level you like, (and take some of the pressure off ya) And you can methodically trouble shoot your spraying rig until you find and fix the problem.
    EDIT: Come to think of it, there's a pretty good series in the Stew-Mac information section where Dan Earlewine finishes what he calls "the blue guitar" with rattlecans, in cold (really cold, as I recall) weather. One of the big tips was to soak the spray cans in hot water for a while before using, to get good pressure and atomization out of the cans, among other good tips.

    . . .found the link to the Stewmac Article: http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Finishing/Colors,_stains/a-blueguitar.html
     

  16. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    Thanks Rick. You are a wealth of info.
     

  17. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    Sorry, these aren't the greatest pics. I took them for my first build thread. This is the spray rig I use.
     

    Attached Files:


  18. Cleeve

    Cleeve Tele-Holic

    Age:
    52
    992
    Feb 19, 2009
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    A coat of SealCoat shellac will take care of things if there is silicone soaked into the wood, then the lacquer will be happy on top of the shellac.
    Maybe some Pledge or something was sprayed in the same room when the neck was open and some drops soaked in, or maybe contaminated a rag.. silicone is in lots of things now, hand lotion, hair products, transmission fluid, dryer sheets, fabric softener..
     

  19. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    So it's definitely not the necks.

    I stripped the necks again using the same elaborate method: thinner, alcohol, mineral spirits, ammonia/water. Then followed with some dewaxed shallac. After all that, decided to go with some rattlecan lacquer from HD. Minwax clear gloss. Worked like a charm. Does anyone know from experience how long this stuff needs to cure before sanding? The coats dried very thin, how many coats should I do?
     

    Attached Files:


  20. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Tele-Holic

    948
    Oct 13, 2009
    Johnson City, TN
    Rattle cans typically have a low solids content. When using them I apply three coats in the morning, and 3 more in the evening for 3-4 days. Which is about 18-24 coats (but remember they are very thin coats.) If your surface level/prep was very meticulous you can easily get by with less coats.

    You can shoot heavier coats but are just asking for a run or sag.

    The more coats/thicker film you apply the longer you should wait before sanding. It can take a while for the lowest coats to decently de-gas. A month is a good safe figure. You can monitor progress by gently pressing a fingernail against a non-visible area of the neck (e.g. heel.)
     

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