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Asher Guitars WD Music Products Amplified Parts Mod Kits DIY Nordstarnd Pickups Warmoth.com

Why Is This Happening?

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by trippercaster, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. J.E.M.

    J.E.M. Tele-Meister

    173
    Jun 28, 2011
    toronto
    My friend, after 35 years of spraying, imo you're going to be sad following the pipedream that those are not fish eyes and that somehow high pressure can cause something that looks even remotely close to what we're seeing.

    The test for a fish eye is simple, put a micro drop of your clean lacquer in one of them, if it doesn't level out the impression or if a couple drops don't level it out, if it "rejects" the lacquer, it's a fish eye.

    Also, fish eye remover (which doesn't actually remove but instead prevents) or "slick" as we call it here in Canada is not pure silicone and will not do any damage to your gun or in any way cause more fish eyes... so someone is sadly mistaken unless down there in America they have an approach that is 100% opposite to what we do up here.
     

  2. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    I do believe that they are most likely fisheyes. I will try the test you describe this weekend.

    Since you have much experience, do you recommend using a fisheye preventative everytime you spray? What are any disadvantages?

    I remember reading in one or two of Gil's threads that he would use a product called Smoothie, which I have found online. Is this a similar product? I have not really considered purchasing this since very very few others do.
     

  3. J.E.M.

    J.E.M. Tele-Meister

    173
    Jun 28, 2011
    toronto
    There's no issue once your source is found and eliminated so you proably won't need it all the time, I don't use it in every pot of lacquer but I know furniture finishers who do and I know it has no ill affect.

    Here's what I use (Mohawk fisheye flowout) and if you check the MSDS you'll see there's no silicone in the ingredients.
     

  4. Rhomco

    Rhomco Friend of Leo's

    Oct 8, 2004
    DFW, Texas
    Silicone

    Fish-Eye reducer adds silicone to your finish so that it overcomes the contaminant by, essentially, making peace with the contaminant. Silicon sandpaper is not silicone. One is a element (sand) and the other a product on man's genius. If the silicon sandpaper is the culprit the silicone would have to come from the adhesive used to adhere the silicon to the paper. Nuff said about this I think.
     

  5. CapnCrunch

    CapnCrunch Friend of Leo's

    Jan 7, 2011
    Washington, USA
    Play around with your mixture. Even when it is cold, I add a little thinner. I don't spray every day, so when I have a couple of bodies and necks to spray, it takes me a couple of applications to get everything dialed in. I typically use about 90% lacquer to 10% thinner when my shop is in the 50's. It takes a couple of cups in the gun to fine tune it, but usually I can get to where I'm spraying flat enough that I can level with 1000 and go to the buffer. The last couple of guitars I did, I was able to spray flat enough that I didn't need to sand, and was able to go directly to the buffer. I have never been able to achieve that level of flatness when it is hot, however. The key for me has been to spray on the hairy edge of having runs.
     

  6. adirondak5

    adirondak5 Wood Hoarder Extraordinaire Ad Free + Supporter

    Oct 24, 2009
    Long Island NY
    Polydimethylsiloxane is the major component of the Mohawk Fisheye Flowout , that is silicone .

    https://www.google.com/#q=polydimethylsiloxane
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014

  7. orangedrop

    orangedrop Friend of Leo's

    Aug 20, 2010
    New York
    :lol:I picked up a couple of the "expensive" $35 HF purple guns with the brass knobs ($24 ea), so I guess you saw the gallon of oil the HF sprayguns have inside them?:lol:

    What a mess!

    One is a flake gun and the other is a beater, but after hand lapping all the holes and surfaces in the air cap, it sprays quite well.

    My higher end DeVilbiss atomizes better, but for $24 they were hard to beat.


    It sounds like you are on your way to tracking down the source of your troubles.

    I am very diligent about where my hands have been before touching any product to be finished.

    It is amazing how easy it is to cross contaminate a surface if you are not very careful.

    After taking the infectious disease class for EMS training, we all became far more aware of where we placed our hands during the course of a day.
     

  8. Jfellows

    Jfellows Tele-Afflicted

    Aug 23, 2012
    Tracy, California
    Guys, I've chased a similar problem before, most times I never figured out what it was, but was able to resolve it by just stripping, recleaning everything with multiple kinds of solvents, and starting over.

    One question I've had - all of this new 3m sandpaper, the yellow and purple ones have a coating on the back to make it easier to use that sure feels like silicone to my fingers. Has anyone had a problem with getting fisheye when using that 3m paper, and traced the problem to the paper? The coating is on the back, but the front of every sheet is in contact with the back of another in the package. That sandpaper works really well for me, but I wonder sometimes if it's creating some of the issues.
     

  9. Buckocaster51

    Buckocaster51 Super Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    65
    Jan 6, 2005
    Iowa USA
    Admin Post
    Sure looks like silicone contamination to me.

    Ammonia.

    On with one rag...

    Off with another...

    Wear gloves.

    Evaluate the cleanliness of your spray area...

    A new filter between your hose and your gun.

    Have fun!
     

  10. adirondak5

    adirondak5 Wood Hoarder Extraordinaire Ad Free + Supporter

    Oct 24, 2009
    Long Island NY

    3M is pretty good with keeping silicone out of their finishing supplies , I would go to their web site and check with them if there is no label advising the ingredients or if silicone free .
     

  11. orangedrop

    orangedrop Friend of Leo's

    Aug 20, 2010
    New York
    I do not know what that chewy feeling stuff is on the back of the 3M Purple Premium paper, but it is definitely not silicone.

    Used a ton of the stuff and have had no fisheyes in lacquer, poly, 2K, waterbornes, etc.

    I like the way it sticks to the sanding blocks, and the abrasive granule seems to be very consistent in size.
     

  12. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    I spent quite a bit of time cleaning that gun. It was a PITA, but as I said before, I don't have a bunch of money to throw at this all at once, so I buy cheap to get started and slowly will replace poor tools with higher quality tools. That means I've had to go to Harbor F. for many many things. I think the gun will work fine once I figure this out.

    I took parasitology, immunology, cell biology, etc., and share that awareness. Maybe to a fault. Borderline compulsive. :oops: I work for a firm that designs wastewater treatment facilities which has forced me to spend quite a bit of time around them. I learned to keep a stash of nitrile gloves. I use them very often in the garage to prevent contamination of myself and my work.
     

  13. orangedrop

    orangedrop Friend of Leo's

    Aug 20, 2010
    New York
    :lol:we all had many funny conversations about "seeing" the seething masses of pathogens on public restroom doorknobs, etc.:lol:

    My guess is, nearly every one who took the class now opens doors with elbows or a hip When possible and are far more likely to use one hand to touch the world and the other for their face!

    HF is a great place to get all kinds of things.

    Even when I was raking it in (relatively mind you:rolleyes:) we frequented the hallows of HF.

    There are simply a few products to steer clear of because they are truly junk, and any one is simply throwing their money down the hopper.

    Those purple guns are quite serviceable and while far from a SATA, I can still get a finish fine enough that 800 is coarse enough for the first pass of sanding.

    The one thing I did, is order some six ounce cups from Grizzly and with a few pipe fittings and some teflon tape, was able to fit the small cup to the gun.

    Much nicer to use without that milk jug hanging off the top of the rig:lol:
     

  14. DrASATele

    DrASATele Poster Extraordinaire

    Jul 6, 2012
    North of Boston
    +1 on those purple HF guns, even the small ones work quiet well with a pancake style compressor add one of their cheap air brushes and you can pretty much tackle any guitar finishing style. I finished 2 beautiful vintage burst with this set up.

    +1 on the clean each piece of equipment and spray area diligently.
     

  15. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    Great idea swapping the huge cup for a small one. I will do this.
     

  16. Keyser Soze

    Keyser Soze Tele-Holic

    948
    Oct 13, 2009
    Johnson City, TN
    http://news.thefinishingstore.com/?p=795

    At first glance I would have described those dimples as pinholes, especially how they appear most heavy around the grainier parts of the board.

    And pinholes are typically a problem of poor flow out - the finish skinning up around a physical defect rather than 'bridging' over it.

    But reading the description makes it clear - that is true fish eye, and a lot of it, caused by direct application of silicone.

    When in doubt, shellac.
     

  17. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    so I finally got a few minutes to spend on these necks. I stripped them both with lacquer thinner. Then wiped with denatured alcohol, then with mineral spirits, and finally with ammonia/water mixture. I let it dry for an hour in between steps. After all that, I wiped on two really thin coats of dewaxed shellac. Should be good, right? Not so lucky.

    And no, these are not the same pics as last time.

    I also took a piece of scrap and sanded one side with some brand new Norton 220 grit paper, the other with the Harbor freight paper that I was questioning earlier in this thread. Same effect on both sides. So what does this prove? The problem is with my rig or my technique.

    It was mentioned that I may be spraying at too high a pressure, so I reduced that down to 30 psi at the gun. I did not thin the laquer this time at the suggestion of someone in this thread. In the areas where there were no fisheyes, the lacquer layed down very nice.

    The temperature was 50 degrees.

    I put a brand new disposable water filter on just before the pressure gauge that is attached to the gun.
     

    Attached Files:


  18. Jupiter

    Jupiter Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Jun 22, 2010
    Osaka, Japan
    The plot thickens....
     

  19. adirondak5

    adirondak5 Wood Hoarder Extraordinaire Ad Free + Supporter

    Oct 24, 2009
    Long Island NY
    I don't think its your technique tripper , still looks like contamination , you know it was not the necks , so its either gun , compressor , or like you said technique . Frustrating as all , but you have eliminated 1 possibility , hope you find the cause sooner than later ;)
     

  20. trippercaster

    trippercaster Tele-Meister

    270
    Aug 13, 2012
    Roanoke, VA
    You're probably saying to yourself, "why didn't you test on scrap before spraying the necks again?" Well, I told you I'm impatient. I don't get much time to work on this so I gambled. I was so sure it was the sandpaper.

    Should I clean everything with mineral spirits? I guess I should start with the gun and just work backwards. What about the gauge? Can I clean that with spirits?

    Any chance tephlon tape could do it?

    Any thoughts on how it made it through the brand new filter I put in?

    I may just buy another new hose from somewhere other than Harbor F.
     

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