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what is shredding

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by LeftyAl, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. Sounds Good

    Sounds Good Tele-Holic

    622
    Oct 2, 2017
    Luton UK
    I agree shredding is ok used rightly, but any type of guitar playing can sound great in the right hands, also i think most people just like the music or sounds they like regardless of the player or style.

    I can play really fast or really slow some love it when i go fast, others like slower it is all in the ears which are listening i think, also some folk have quicker minds than others and like quicker tempo licks.
     
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  2. 3fngrs

    3fngrs Friend of Leo's

    Oct 30, 2017
    Ohio
    I was informed in this thread that the better you are at playing guitar the worse you are.
     
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  3. MDent77

    MDent77 Tele-Holic

    966
    Jun 13, 2016
    New England

    When I was first playing guitar as a teenager I was blessed to be able to hang out, listen and occasionally play with a group of musicians with far superior skillsets than my own. I was friends with one of the guitarists and bass player. They covered songs from classic rock, fusion to progressive rock. My guitarist friend, Matt had the ability to shred impressively. He hated being prompted to play that style constantly. He commented it made him feel like a circus monkey. He was just gifted.

    I still recall one time the drummer, Paul (who went on to a bit fame in the 80's) commented during a break that I sounded like Joe Perry. He didn't state it in a complimentary manner - insinuating my solos were not articulate enough at full speed. I almost hit him with my Gibson SG but commented I was sloppy but hoped to be able to play as well as Joe soon.

    Thankfully, he was the only musician I met who arrogantly looked at things as a pure competition. I would have quit playing the instrument if that attitude was the norm. Thankfully, I’ve met some humble players with extreme skills that prompt me to sit and listen, and practice!
     
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  4. GuitarRandy

    GuitarRandy TDPRI Member

    59
    Dec 24, 2012
    Parker, Colorado
    I grew up in the hair band era with the likes of Van Halen, George Lynch, Randy Rhoads, etc. I never considered any of them shredders although they certainly had the ability to play fast when they wanted. It was more about style and feel more than speed picking. Stevie Ray is another example.

    It wasn't until this video that I gained an appreciation for the "shredder" mindset or speed:



    Paul can shred with the best but he doesn't just fill the space with notes all the time.

    All in all I'm still not a huge fan of picking as fast as possible but I can appreciate the talent.
     
  5. xRockOveRx

    xRockOveRx TDPRI Member

    Age:
    28
    91
    Jan 28, 2017
    Cheektowaga
    Looks like a character from Tekken the video game. Or one of those arcade fighting games lol. EJ is amazing.
     
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  6. jman72

    jman72 Tele-Holic

    862
    Aug 31, 2013
    Central Florida
    [QUOTE="TimTam, post: 8106399, member: 48700"

    In fact technical virtuosity and musicality are almost always mutually exclusive IMHO.

    [/QUOTE]

    "You like strawberry icecream? Man, that's just crazy. EVERYBODY knows that vanilla is the best and once you go adding those fancy strawberries and stuff, you lose the purity of the flavor. Maybe you like strawberry, but trust me, you're wrong for liking it."

    Sorry, but this is a ridiculous statement. You might not LIKE Steve Vai and other shredders, but the man knows more about music than 99.999% of guitarists on the planet. And what exactly is musicality??? Why do you or anyone else get to decide what is more or less musically interesting than anything else? My drummer HATES, DESPISES, LOATHES all blues, punk, Americana rock, and constantly listens to Pat Matheny, Frank Gambale, and other jazz/fusion groups BECAUSE of the complexity of the music. That's not my cup of tea (I can't listen to Pat Matheny for more than 10 minutes before I get bored from all the notes), but that's what he loves, so I'd never have the arrogance to say that Matheny's less musical than Tom Petty because I like "Free Fallin" better.

    Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Steely Dan (Reelin' In The Years...one of the best solos ever written), but I also love Vai and Satriani (who have many equally musical and FAST solos). I just find it funny how judgemental people are when bashing fast guitar players. Who are you to make the decision that speed is NOT the height of musicality? I don't mean to be rude, but people telling me what I should or shouldn't like (or what constitutes good music and why others are wrong) always riles me up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  7. Sounds Good

    Sounds Good Tele-Holic

    622
    Oct 2, 2017
    Luton UK
    I think on the MAB fourm they clocked that one at 16 nps and very clean, just to think Shawn Lane was even faster at 19.4 nps and clean as well, but also with few economy picks in as well, because he was doing alot string skipping and with stretching wide as well.

    Yes they were both in exercises just to show various patterns linked, although i know Shawn did get carried away on occasions though even when playing songs live.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
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  8. TimTam

    TimTam Tele-Meister

    414
    Jun 4, 2010
    Melbourne
    "In fact technical virtuosity and musicality are almost always mutually exclusive IMHO" ... ie in my humble opinion.

    And I'm guessing that's your humble opinion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  9. jman72

    jman72 Tele-Holic

    862
    Aug 31, 2013
    Central Florida
    I get it. But, sorry, but writing IMHO after such a strong and unequivocal statement (you do say "IN FACT'", which by definition claims this as fact, not your opinion) doesn't absolve you from having to take some flak for such an indefensible position.o_O

    And no, saying that Steve Vai knows more about music than 99.999% of guitarists is NOT my humble opinion.. that is indeed a fact. I don't think that any guitarist that knows anything about Vai would dispute this (regardless of whether they like his music or not). And for the record, I love Vai, but even I can't take too much of him...his music is so cerebral and complex that it makes my head hurt. I did get to meet him once after a show. He was pretty cool, but definitely aware of his own technical abilities, if you know what I mean.;)

    vai.jpg


    My point is, it's perfectly reasonable to say, "I don't like shredding". That is opinion and everyone's entitled to that. But to say that technical virtuosity and musicality are almost always mutually exclusive. Well, that's just crazy talk. :cool:
     
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  10. kunos

    kunos TDPRI Member

    24
    Feb 15, 2011
    italy/it
    are guitarists the only to hold this bizarre notion that in order to be good you need to avoid learning your instruments and music itself?
    I guess it's a pretty unique approach, perhaps singers can compete when it comes similar nonsense?
     
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  11. JL_LI

    JL_LI Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    68
    May 20, 2017
    Long Island, NY
    Shredding is playing music I don't like faster than I could play it if I did.
     
  12. william tele

    william tele Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Nov 7, 2009
    Kansas City, MO
    I think people choose to play what they like. Most of the clips here that feature scales being played very fast with lots of delay and distortion are good practice for many other types of music that those people may choose to play.

    But if you truly have no desire to hear scales played fast with lots of delay and distortion I think it's perfectly understandable that you WILL NOT pursue that style of guitar. I, for one, am actually repulsed by some of the clips posted in this thread. The scales, no matter how fast they're played are not inspiring to me nor do they make me feel good.

    I will not be learning how to rap, tap, or cookie monster sing either. No hate for those that do.
     
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  13. TimTam

    TimTam Tele-Meister

    414
    Jun 4, 2010
    Melbourne
    The fact that the mere suggestion that technical virtuosity does not equal good music ('IMHO') seems to get some peoples' back up is indicative of how ingrained the contrary notion is. It seems that some people just can't get their heads around the fact that it is not self-evident to everyone that a fast playing style is synonymous with great musicality.

    Which is why it needs to be pointed out that it is not self-evident. Even it means being accused of being crazy.

    I wouldn't expect everyone to accept that a slow playing style is highly musical. So why is it hard to accept that an ultra fast playing style is not necessarily musical.

    I just have a different notion of what makes good music. As do others. I didn't try to tell people what they should like, I merely tried to explain the basis of my opinion. Pointedly ... yes. But I don't think I called anyone crazy. I try to keep these discussions non-personal. Music after all is subjective. ;)
     
  14. kunos

    kunos TDPRI Member

    24
    Feb 15, 2011
    italy/it
    it's synonymous of being in control of the instrument.
    If you are in control of the instrument you are more likely to be able to express your musicality, if you have one.
    If you are not in control of your instrument, your "musicality" is just the result of random stuff... and, by definition, inability to fully express your musical ideas unless your musical ideas are incredibly basic.
    It's like suggesting an illiterate could come out with a novel with literary merit.. not impossible... but practically impossible.

    So you are right, the 2 don't go together at all, and it's true in both directions: they don't prove nor disprove musicality... the just measure the potential of that performer to convey musical ideas.

    Now, if your idea of "musicality" means any combination of out of time, out of tune or out of key it's pretty understandable you find music performed by people that actually show love and dedication to the craft appalling.
     
  15. 3fngrs

    3fngrs Friend of Leo's

    Oct 30, 2017
    Ohio
    Guitarists who can't play fast and haven't achieved a level of virtuosity just can't play musically. Most of them can't even read music! Using tons of bends and vibrato to fake musicality is just covering up a lack of ability. IMHO
    :p:p:D:D:p:p:D:D

    Just putting the shoe on the other foot.

    Seriously though, I've heard plenty of not fast players that suck. Poorly intonated bends, blah vibrato, sloppy picking, out of key. Hey! I resemble those remarks!
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
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  16. jman72

    jman72 Tele-Holic

    862
    Aug 31, 2013
    Central Florida
    But you didn't say that fast, technical playing is NOT NECESSARILY musical- you said "In fact technical virtuosity and musicality are almost always mutually exclusive". That is very different. I absolutely accept that not all fast music is good music- no problem. Just like some of my favorite music is three cords played very slowly. But you essentially said that all fast or virtuoso guitar music is not musical. That's rubbish.

    And nobody said you're crazy- I said the supposition that technical virtuosity equals nonmusicality is crazy talk. Big difference.
     
  17. supersoldier71

    supersoldier71 Tele-Holic

    Age:
    47
    776
    Nov 22, 2009
    Fayetteville, NC
    There's nothing humble about that opinion. I don't particularly care for "shred", but I dislike logical fallacies even more.

    Based on your statement, proficiency is inversely proportional to musicality. Stated another way, the greater degree to which you are able to make the guitar do what you want, the less able you are to do anything useful with it. Does that make any sense at all, in any context, in any endeavor?

    Let me pump the brakes a bit, 'cause that probably comes off as more argumentative than I'd intended.

    Without putting words in your mouth (or rather, your post), you prefer music with more raw emotional content than is usually found in those forms of music. And that's fair and reasonable.
     
  18. Sounds Good

    Sounds Good Tele-Holic

    622
    Oct 2, 2017
    Luton UK
    Shawn Lane use to shred not using scales that much, and when he did with scales he used the diminished and augmented ones mainly to get an outside effect more. I think GG is not to happy with folk shreding scales to much either, also wide interval playing can sound nice even at slower speeds as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
  19. Frodebro

    Frodebro Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Age:
    49
    Aug 17, 2012
    Seattle
    Really...

     
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  20. awasson

    awasson Friend of Leo's Gold Supporter

    Age:
    54
    Nov 18, 2010
    Vancouver
    I did at one point...

    I was fortunate to play in bands with a really naturally talented musician who didn’t have any desire to learn anything about music, technique, theory, etc... I didn’t realize that he was just supernaturally gifted and I thought that I really needed to dumb down my approach to unlock my creativity so I could be as talented as he was. I was wrong and played in a dumbed down rut for years until I finally snapped out of it.

    Funny thing is now I can play fast-ish and I still play with all the feel and emotion I had before I started working on my theory and technique. I’ve still got a long way to go though so none of these shredders need to worry about me coming along and showing them up... or showing them much of anything for that matter.

    As a matter of interest, I’ve noticed that the faster I can play (I’m really not very fast), the faster I can think about the music I’m playing and the better I can understand what’s going on when I hear a flurry of notes. So, it stands to reason that sometimes I’ll hear something ridiculously fast and I can’t grasp a reference point so it’s just noise but if it’s within my ability to grasp it, it makes musical sense and I’ll enjoy it more. I found that when I was at an Eric Johnson / Mike Stern show. At the end of like two hours of playing, Mike Stern was just churning out the riffs at the speed of light and my brain had had enough. I knew it was great playing but I was already at capacity and couldn’t comprehend any of the musical ideas that were coming at me.

    One last thing... I have seen Slash play. He can shred with the best of them and in a good way. After seeing him play, I put him up there with the greats. He needs a Strat or a Telecaster though. Everything he played aside from his LP was pointy and they all had humbuckers.
     
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