What are some songs/solos using Lydian?

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by emu!, Mar 31, 2009.

  1. ' burn 08

    ' burn 08 Tele-Afflicted

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    I'll be the first to admit that I get my modes mixed up sometimes. I understand the gist of them just from reading, but I will say I don't really completely understand the application. I normally just play in the notes of the chord in the prog I'm in. Would that not be considered modal, even if limited? Say we are in Fmaj like above. When we are on the IV7(the lydian chord) I'm playing the notes in Bbmaj7 and that would be the Lyian mode, correct? and when we are on the V7(the moxylydian chord) I'm playing the notes in Cdom7 which would be the Moxylidian mode. If we are on the ii7 (dorian chord) I'm playing the notes in Gmin7 which would be in the Dorian mode. Is this correct or am I confused? But I can extend and play more notes than just what makes up the chord correct? But I would still be in Fmaj? I'm asking, I don't know.
     
  2. ' burn 08

    ' burn 08 Tele-Afflicted

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    but say I played the dorian mode over the V7 chord. it wouldn't be wrong, just a different sound?
     
  3. gionnio

    gionnio Tele-Meister

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    I recently asked my friend Andrew (a reasonably-well-schooled sax player I've been jamming with) about modal vs. traditional (through the mid 50's) improv technique and why it has been regarded as such a significant change. One thing he mentioned was the absence of voice leading in the modal appoach.

    Anticipation of an approaching tonal center shift and creating phrases to build tension that's resolved when the center shifts was fundamental to the technique of many great traditional players. Adoption of the modal approach by Miles and others forced the players to develop new techniques based on the "non-resolvingness" mentioned by klasine above.

    I've heard a lot of discussion about modal improvisation over the years, but I've never heard it described in quite that way. Apologies if it's not an accurate description of what's going on or is widely known already, but Andrew's point seems valid to me.
     
  4. ' burn 08

    ' burn 08 Tele-Afflicted

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    ok, question. when you say the lydian is best over the maj7#11, is that becasue the 11 is an octave of the 4? Again, I really don't know this stuff and am trying to figure out the why's.
     
  5. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Aside: in classical music: Beethoven, String Quartet No.15 in A Minor, Third Movement, titled "Heiliger Dankgesang eines Genesenen an die Gottheit, in der lydischen Tonart" ("Holy Song of Thanksgiving by a Convalescent to the Divinity, in the Lydian Mode")

     
  6. slowpinky

    slowpinky Tele-Afflicted

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    Right.
    Understanding Lydian means understanding (knowing) the tritone interval - and the relationship the #4 has with the 5th .....the sound in classical and movie/show music is often the sound of a divine 'mystery' or the unknown in my experience - . I've said before that modes are really 'moods' - the tone relationships create unique and recogniseable moods even if individuals have a different perspective on what that means.

    Its interesting that KL mentions the Am -Bb progression because I remember years ago playing George Benson's "El Mar" (from "White Rabbit")
    on a gig , which is Bbmaj7#11 to Am7 for a lot of the tune - and hearing it as distinctly Lydian to Phrygian - even though the actual notes were the same -it was real modality at work because the mood totally changed on each chord.

    George plays it here much more as Bb lydian to A Aeolian .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSbL1Bbz3zg

    To get the Lydian sound - for those who are new to it , memorise a few phrases -the openings of "The Simpsons", "Maria" - "Some Enchanted Evening", etc are lydian phrases - in the sense that they capture the 'mood"
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2012
  7. JayFreddy

    JayFreddy Poster Extraordinaire

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    The second section of that tune is:

    A (Lydian), C (Lydian), C#m (Dorian), G#m (Aeolian),
    A (Lydian), F#m (Dorian), G (Lydian), B (Mixolydian)...

    Then back to the first section, i.e., Em (Aeolian), C (Lydian), aka the
    "just twiddling in G" part... ;)
     
  8. gtroates

    gtroates Tele-Meister

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    To give some more tunes which use the Lydian mode, at least in parts:

    "Spain" by Chick Corea
    "Phase Dance" by Pat Metheny
    "In Your Own Sweet Way" by Dave Brubeck

    If you learn modes as isolated sounds over chord progressions which emphasize their flavor, you will be more likely to recall the fingering and sound later when the Lydian sound is more fleeting as it can be in many songs.

    A simple thing to remember the Lydian mode is to remember the placement of the two half steps. They are between the 4th and 5th notes and the 7th and 8th notes of the mode. The remainder of the degrees are a whole step apart, so the first four notes of the Lydian mode are all whole steps apart, it has the same "spacy" feel as the whole tone scale for its first four notes, many players take advantage of this with whole tone licks on these notes.
     
  9. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Thanks to the OP for bringing this up and to Klasaine for teaching me a new chord form. Now, I have this....over which I can play this Llydian thing. New song....

    ..X....x...5
    ..6....5...5
    ..7....7...5
    ..7....7...5
    ..x....x...7
    6...6.....5

    I dont' understand a thing ya'll are talking about, though. ...well maybe just a bit, but not much....
     
  10. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    One new chord that you use is worth a whole lot.
     
  11. krowbot

    krowbot Tele-Meister

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    Yes, when teaching the concept, it can get confusing. I tend to let my students know that there is "key center playing" and "static chord" playing when it comes to improvisation. Also, I tend to work backwards, having them listen to the progression and letting them see and hear why the mode works. Sorry just got excited because I like to hear how other people explain modes. I totally agree with you as usual. :p
     
  12. Charlesinator

    Charlesinator Tele-Meister

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    For those of us who aren't super theorists ... here's a move which I use alot and it can spice up your blues playing. If you are playing a blues in A when you go to the IV (D), play the three-note--per-string lydian scale starting on the C note on the 5th string 3rd fret. You are actually playing D mixolydian just starting on the 7th which sounds cool. I suppose you could actually look at it like you are playing G Ionian or A Dorian and ARE depending on the chords you are playing at the time. Starting runs a scale tone lower I know is used alot in jazz. Anyway I always wind up wanking in a minor pentatonic. Lol! So this move makes me appear that I know what I'm doing ... at least to the uneducated. Lol!
     
  13. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    This is the beauty of but also the difficulty/potential for confusion of modal playing ... "every player can hear it differently".
    I prefer the phryg sound with the root as A over that particular progression, others like lydian w/root as Bb. Knowing what your 'choosing' as your root/home tone directly influences the sound of your improv. Yeah I know that A phryg and Bb lyd contain the same notes but I hear it from a different starting point and with the 1/2 steps in different places - makes me play totally differently.
    *It's a bit like two people eating the exact same meal but one of them starting with the main course and the other one starting with dessert (and finishing with the main course).
     
  14. the embezzler

    the embezzler Tele-Holic

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    The verse's to Here Comes My Girl by Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers are a Lydian sound. An A major triad up to a B major triad with an A pedal tone in the bass.
     
  15. chabby

    chabby Friend of Leo's

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    Thank you - finally....right before I just about fell asleep, you named a tune familiar enough to me to maybe get a clue what lydian is. Then I started thinking of other tunes with similar sounds. Most of those tones that come to mind aren't during verses though, at least not in much pop that I can think of.

    Sometimes its used right before a chorus such as in "Love Needs a Heart" by Lowell George and Jackson Browne where that tone is used briefly right at the end of the intro. But now I think I'm starting to get what to listen for - I think.
     
  16. slowpinky

    slowpinky Tele-Afflicted

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    Yeah I,m sure that's true - that particular tune is in A min(ish) - no doubt about it.
    But I liked the way the "E" on the Bbmaj7#11 chord would change its gravity on the change - or the suspension of the Bb over the Am7 chord could lead you to all sorts of places. I'm into the food analogies btw - music and food - they all go in and change things!:D
     
  17. the embezzler

    the embezzler Tele-Holic

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    Try this tune -

    The first couple of minutes is a total Lydian sound and then it goes into more of a major pent/major thing for the rest of the tune.

    This guy is giving a pretty nice example, too....
     
  18. chabby

    chabby Friend of Leo's

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    Definitely has that east indian Ravi Shanckar vibe.

    Is the sitar tuned in such a way that almost every note you hear played on it sounds like Lydian? Or, is it just thye notes chosen for Indian music that makes such use of Lydian scales.
     
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