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Weber Speakers: technical info?

Discussion in 'Amp Tech Center' started by maxvintage, Dec 15, 2016.

  1. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Mar 16, 2003
    Arlington, VA
    I built a cab for a single ten speaker. I'm using it with a low watt tube amp for home recording and low volume stuff. I'm a jazzbo. Right now it has a Jensen C10q in it, which sounds pretty good. But who can leave well enough alone?

    So I'm looking for a low wattage LOW SENSITIVITY 10 inch speaker. So i think "ted weber. made in the usa, custom stuff, attention to detail" and off i go to the weber web site.

    So it turns out they offer several dozen ten inch speakers with ZERO technical info--no sensitivity figures, no plots, nothing but marketing speak. For example, here's the "technical info" for the "Ceramic Signature ten"

    "Ted Weber Signature Series speakers use all industry-standard parts and are an economical choice as a replacement speaker for low to moderate volume use. We keep stock of these speakers so they ship within a few days of ordering."


    And here are the technical details for the 10F15OH

    "Ted Weber Speakers are built with tighter, more concentric voice coil gaps, and lower carbon, machined steel parts in the magnet circuits which yield a stronger, more controlled tone at all volumes, particularly in the low end at high volumes.

    Ted Weber Speakers are hand-built to order, to ensure the best attention to detail is paid to your speaker. We build them one at a time, on a table - not hundreds at a time on an assembly line. This allows us to reduce the margin for error and produce an overall higher-quality speaker. Please allow 7-10 business days for your order to be built and then shipped."



    Hey thanks guys! That really helps!

    Is there any more detailed info available anywhere?
     

  2. deadicated

    deadicated Tele-Holic

    895
    Aug 1, 2011
    Baltimore
    I don't know much about Webers but would recommend checking out WGS great speakers and prices.
     

  3. Ringo

    Ringo Poster Extraordinaire

    Mar 16, 2003
    Memphis TN
    You could always try calling Weber and tell them what you're looking for , specs don't always get you what you want.
     

  4. ^^^^^^^^ This. They have been very helpful over the phone for me. If you do order a speaker get the broken in option.
     
    vashondan and telemnemonics like this.

  5. bparnell57

    bparnell57 Poster Extraordinaire

    Feb 10, 2014
    Philadelphia, PA
    Weber stopped listing efficiency ratings when they recognized that there was no industry standard for testing guitar speaker efficiency.
     
    clintj, JD0x0 and telemnemonics like this.

  6. Lupo

    Lupo Tele-Holic

    763
    May 19, 2014
    Genova-Italy
    This makes me laugh. industrial standard for efficiency ratings Exists. No specific regulations is needed. Then, I could agree that the efficiency does not tell much about how it would break in and so on, but this is not a good reason not to give a correct information. A frequency response would help as well..
     
    soulman969 and mRtINY like this.

  7. bparnell57

    bparnell57 Poster Extraordinaire

    Feb 10, 2014
    Philadelphia, PA
    Yes, but various guitar manufacturers test their speaker efficiency differently.

    Frequency response charts are probably not provided as they can be misleading depending upon if someone understands the significance of cabinet design on speaker response.
     

  8. Lupo

    Lupo Tele-Holic

    763
    May 19, 2014
    Genova-Italy
    Yes and no.
    If one has the efficiency, the Q factor and the frequency response, can be able to project the proper enclosure.
    Measuring the efficiency, means, anyhow, to measure in an open air, in an anechoic room the response at 1m to a 1W sinusoidal signal.
    Give no information saying that is because the information can be misinterpreted seems to me just cheating.
    It is like saying that, as the fuel consumption of a car is measured in a way that is not the actual use, car maker have better not to declare it. We all agree that, in spite of the existence of a standard, the real fuel consumption is usually far from the declared one, but if one car declare 5L/100km, and the other 10L/100km you can know anyhow what consume more.

    But I think we are getting out of topic....

    To resume: they do not declear anything, and you have to strust to "fancy" descriptions...
     
    maxvintage likes this.

  9. bparnell57

    bparnell57 Poster Extraordinaire

    Feb 10, 2014
    Philadelphia, PA
    I understand that. A frequency response is still quite misleading in guitar speakers. According to frequency response charts, a cheap "junk" Line 6 OEM Celestion Seventy 80 is half way between a Vintage 30 and an EV 12L.

    Generally Weber provides magnet weight and voice coil size, which can tell you quite a bit about relative efficiency.
     

  10. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Mar 16, 2003
    Arlington, VA

    Exactly--they give no info at all other than their subjective descriptions, which are mostly the usual buzz words about vintage and warm and chime and smooth.

    If I call, them and say "I want this" they will say "oh you should get that" which is also purely subjective.

    Makes me want to look elesewhere
     

  11. Wally

    Wally Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Lubbock, TX
    Max, when you read something like 'built with tighter voice coil gaps' as in that Weber literature you can be assured that you I'll not be buying a low efficiency speaker. A low efficiency speaker will have a wider voice gap. That Weber 10" ceramic is a punchy, loud speaker.
    I like the Eminence Legend ALK 1028. It is not a 'quiet' speaker, but it is not the most efficient 10" you can buy, either....Eminence says it is just under 98db.
    Side note.....jazz? What amp? Clean? IF you are playing clean, then IMHO any speaker works....especially if one has a BF/SF type of amp. The only time one needs low efficiency is when one is looking for overdrive and reduced volume, IMHO. And then, almost nothing is 'quiet'.
     
    bparnell57 likes this.

  12. Lupo

    Lupo Tele-Holic

    763
    May 19, 2014
    Genova-Italy
    Btw. I'm happy of the weber speaker I have in my champ, built using a Weber kit... but tha'ts another story
     

  13. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    58
    Mar 2, 2010
    Maine
    So a speaker is made of a cone, surround, spider, voice coil former, voice coil, magnet, and frame.
    Weber has probably five or ten different sounding/ responding versions of most of these parts, and even has different sizes of each otherwise identical part.
    Rather than focus on individual speaker models, they offer to custom build you a speaker to your own recipe, and can advise you on what ingredients might best suit your tone and response needs.

    While I can understand wanting to compare Webers by spec like other speaker brands, Weber builds custom speakers, and that is their focus.

    Also, while there may technically be industry standards for testing speaker efficiency, I have done lots of my own testing by listening side by side, and found that the numbers didn't really consistently match up in terms of a 102db Celestion being louder than a 99db Eminence or whatever.
    Oddly enough, I've found that different samples of the same model speaker do not sound the same. Or they do.
    Buying speakers by spec seems like a good idea, but so does buying pickups by spec.

    Now if you look at the model number of a Weber speaker, it includes every useful spec.
    I don't use Weber speakers, but have bought dozens of speakers so did a lot of shopping.

    According to the Weber site:
    The Weber 10F150H has a ribbed cone, 1.5" voice coil (made of paper for the 25w and kapton for the 50w versions), and 40oz ceramic magnet.
    They also state: For mid '60s amps using ceramic tens where tight low end is needed, replaces Chicago Jensen C10N and Oxford 10's. Big bold bottom, later breakup, smooth treble. Because of the hemp cone, this speaker is darker and warmer than the standard 10F150. Softer attack to tame amps with aggressive treble.
    Before choosing it would be worth reading more about the sound difference between kapton, paper, and aluminum voice coil formers. Pretty sure it can be found on the website, but at the same time you can be prett safe assuming that the 25w will break up a little sooner than the 50w version of the same speaker, withing the speakers written description.

    For my dollar, looking at Eminence freq resp charts and efficiency rating did not tell me how drastically different the Tonkerlite sounds compared to the Red Fang.
    In fact, the lower sensitivity, lower 1000hz response, lower freq dip at 1500hz plus less broad peak above 2000hz suggests that the Tonkerlite should be mellower and less harsh than the Red Fang.
    The sound is drastically opposed to what the chart and efficiency rating suggests.
    I mean so drastic that the Tonkerlite is almost unplayably harsh with the same setup as a Red Fang sounds good.

    So much for my personal experience with industry standard ratings and specs.

    I'm not a speaker expert or a Weber expert, just a player who sometimes struggles to find the right product on my first try.
    One very general rule i presume is that smaller voice coils and paper formers result in lower efficiency and earlier breakup. The second number in a Weber speaker is the VC size, 150 is a 1.5" vc, 125 is a 1.25" vc etc. Usually the lower wattage Webers have paper formers and the higher wattage have kapton formers, which also effect the sound and efficiency.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
    boredguy6060 likes this.

  14. archetype

    archetype Fiend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Jun 4, 2005
    Williamsville NY
    Eminence, WGS, Celestion, and others provide numeric data on frequency response and SPL. Each of these companies has their own methodology for measurement, but generally the numbers can be compared to each other. In my experience, numeric data doesn't equal tone, or even efficiency. The numbers are just your best guess at how it will sound and perform with your amp and cabinet.

    If you'd like info on Weber speakers, send a short, respectful inquiry to C.J. Sutton cj@tedweber.com There is also much commentary in these forums about the different Weber speakers, their tone, and their efficiency.

    If you want to move away from ceramic, I use a Weber Alnico Signature 10S in a Super Champ X2 and can recommend it as a low wattage, low efficiency 10" speaker. It's $55 USD. Their description: "10", 7oz AlNiCo plug magnet, 8/16 ohm, 15 watt, 1" voice coil, seamed, ribbed cone. Brighter, smoother, later breakup, aggressive, compressed at high volume." I'd say that "brighter" is simply a comparison to the Alnico Signature 10 which is less bright and gets fatter, earlier. The 10S will do traditional jazz tone with warm sounding pups, but in an open-back cab the low end may be slightly loose when things get loud. My SCX2 is putting out at least 18 Watts with 6L6GB tubes (kids, don't try this at home) so I drive the speaker pretty hard when I have the opportunity. I've had no experience with the ceramic versions of the Sig 10 line.

    Simply by ear, my Weber 10A125 and Blue Pup are both more efficient and more controlled at the low end. The 10A125 has an "American" response curve and is very sympathetic to Fender single coils. The Blue Pup has a "British" response curve with warmer mids. For traditional jazz tone it might provide a smoother top end.
     

  15. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    58
    Mar 2, 2010
    Maine
    Like Wally noted about your wanting a LOW SENSITIVITY speaker to use with a low wattage amp playing Jazz, it's worth asking what info your wish for a low efficiency/ sensitivity speaker is based on.
    A low wattage amp with a low sensitivity speaker equals low volume distortion.
    But is that what you want for Jazz?
    Maybe what you want for your Jazz sound is warm full range but not too bright?
    If so, the 10F150H might be very good, but I'd certainly choose the break in option.
    Weber says about the 10F150H: Tight low end, rolled off treble, bold big bottom, later smooth breakup, smooth treble.
    Sounds pretty good for a low wattage Jazz amp to me.
    A specifically low efficiency speaker is likely to have loose farty low end, early crunchy breakup, and may also have buzzy fizzy treble.
     
    bparnell57 likes this.

  16. mRtINY

    mRtINY Tele-Afflicted

    May 7, 2015
    Orygun
    Weber Speakers are not low efficiency. They strive to be loud.

    And, a well-executed impedance and response graph will tell you everything you need to know about how a speaker sounds at 1W (actually, it's usually at 2.83 Vrms). With tube amps, you have to account for the impedance and it's consequences on the current output of the power tubes at different frequencies.

    But, very few companies provide driver specs at higher power levels. Fewer still give you distortion component responses. And, I know of nobody who tries to measure IMD in the specs....

    But, you can tell a lot from a simple voltage response + impedance graph if you know what to look for.
     
    maxvintage likes this.

  17. Jesse76

    Jesse76 TDPRI Member

    Age:
    41
    14
    Dec 12, 2016
    Langenburg Saskatchewan Canada
    I emailed Weber customer service when I wanted a speaker for my older deluxe. I told them what I equipment had, what sound I wanted. It took a couple weeks to get back to me but the response was very helpful. I took the advice but added a ribbed cone to remove some boomy lows I did not want.

    I was very happy with the result.
     

  18. bparnell57

    bparnell57 Poster Extraordinaire

    Feb 10, 2014
    Philadelphia, PA
    Key word is if. I may understand that data (currently pursuing a degree in electrical engineering. Amp tech on the side), but their market isn't all techs and engineers.
     

  19. JD0x0

    JD0x0 Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    28
    Feb 22, 2009
    New York
    Looks like you glazed over the important specs they list, though

    1'' VC and 7oz magnet says low efficiency, to me. Straight cone (in this case) says early break up. Alnico mag means compression when pushed. Just as an example.
     
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  20. maxvintage

    maxvintage Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Age:
    59
    Mar 16, 2003
    Arlington, VA

    I want a low volume low wattage speaker with breakup for recording at home: think Charley christian Barney Kessel Kenny Burrell midnight blue.

    I understand that frequency plots are far from perfect but in general they are better than "Creamy with rich midrange and vintage breakup"
     

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