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We are all in for it now, Wall Street finds Fender

Discussion in 'Vintage Tele Discussion Forum (pre-1974)' started by garytelecastor, Dec 12, 2013.

  1. joeford

    joeford Friend of Leo's

    Apr 17, 2013
    st. louis, illinois
    i think its hilarious that people invest in guitars. sure, it might make some money for you over the course of a couple years... and looks way cooler than a savings bond or stock in a company... but its a guitar!! i've spent more money on my love of guitars/playing than i could ever make back from a good investment find haha. the term "starvation box" comes to mind :p
     

  2. bob1234

    bob1234 Tele-Afflicted

    Mar 22, 2013
    Michigan

    ??? Facebook had their ipo a year ago, and everyone and their brother said to buy...


    People aren't "investing" in guitars. Most people that are buying vintage guitars, are trying to buy some of their history and holding on to something that wont depreciate with time. Until vintage guitars are tracked as a commodity on wall street, they will never be an "investment". Buying one to make money is dumb, and anyone with money will tell you the same thing. You have a few oddballs that collect vintage guitars, and yes they will appreciate with time, however, dividends and proper investments still far outclass and out perform anything from a musical instrument (barring "good deals!")

    Anything that has a price based purely on extrinsic value is doomed to fail. "Gold" is a good example of this. I bought gold at 800$, sold at 1650$. I got a lot of razz for doing it, I was told it was going to never stop, go well north of 2000$, and that I was dumb for selling. Im currently enjoying my last laugh, and the extra money that went to purchase dividend providing stocks.
     

  3. cowboytwang

    cowboytwang Poster Extraordinaire

    Jul 28, 2003
    Sonoran Desert
    You may not want to hold your breath waiting for baby boomers to go away, or go broke. Every 7 seconds someone in America turns 50 years old, and by 2015 45% of the nation will be over 50. Those over 55 have 75% of the nations money and an average of $24,000 in disposable income a year. So in the next few years we will have 45% of the population in the age bracket with the average one having some $24k to blow each year. That's a HUGE market to sell to!!!
     

  4. garytelecastor

    garytelecastor Poster Extraordinaire

    someone has been holding out on me, and I want to know who, NOW!!!!
    Otherwise, no dessert and no TV, it's straight to bed. :lol:
     

  5. Jared Purdy

    Jared Purdy Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    57
    Jan 26, 2010
    Toronto, Ontario.
    So what is my 2013 Custom Shop R9 (gloss), or my 2011 Custom Shop Strat Deluxe going to be worth in 20 years??? About what I paid for them!:eek: lol::eek::lol::eek::lol:
     

  6. getbent

    getbent Telefied Ad Free Member

    the story is 'old guitars sometimes sell for a lot more money than one might imagine & the vintage market, while 'coming back' is still kind of underwater after the 2008 economic troubles'....

    I don't feel any fear on any front. 'famous guitars' have brought large sums (more than I would pay) for quite some time. That hasn't impacted beginners negatively, if anything, the manufacturers have used the 'vintage vibe' as a design principle which is great for beginners and small budget 'collectors'....

    The part I missed was the Wall Street part... what role is wall street playing? because it was on a business tv network in Toronto?

    It is interesting that the mentioned paul allen... if a guy had bought 380.00 (the cost of the les paul new) on ipo day for microsoft... he'd have made almost twice the amount that it fetched in the vintage market...

    The market will always trump collectibles on any scale... I did appreciate two things--> that the guitar dealer saw deep intrinsic value in the tactile element of the collectible (it made me think of the spinal tap part where the reporter is told NOT to touch a specific guitar) and any mention of Hank Snow... well, that is a good thing.

    I'm gonna wait for something more salient to look skyward and fear the worst... just a slow news day on a tiny network.
     

  7. Jared Purdy

    Jared Purdy Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    57
    Jan 26, 2010
    Toronto, Ontario.
    That is a bit of a two bit retailer in Toronto. I don't believe they even have a store, as such. It's the second such news item up here in the last two years. There was a story in the Globe and Mail (Canada's version of the NYT), in the business section that featured a guy who had bought a lot of vintage guitars earlier on and mostly rented them out to people like Clapton, Richard's etc. when they come to town. The article was pushing the investment theme, and I don't known why as there are likely few people here who have sizeable collections of vintage LPs, Teles and Strats. It was an article with an esoteric twist, speaking fancifully to someone with deep pockets and no vintage guitar collection - suggesting that is what they should do with their (stolen) money.
     

  8. OlRedNeckHippy

    OlRedNeckHippy Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    61
    Jan 12, 2012
    South Jersey
    Today's Vintage Hot items can turn into tomorrows old junk.


    I just sold 3 Very Vintage shotguns. 10 years ago I could have got double what their value is today. It's just market demand.
     

  9. getbent

    getbent Telefied Ad Free Member

    interesting!

    In reading the whole thread... is this really a BIG problem? It doesn't seem like it is... a few people with lots of money spend a bunch of money on a guitar.. how is that not good for everyone?

    Because prices went sky high, I was able to trade a not very vintage 70's custom tele for a gretsch white falcon... Win for me!

    If 53 teles had been cheap, I would have been hosed.

    it seems like there are so many good guitars out there... who cares if some people want to buy and collect? What is the problem? and if it is a big problem... why?
     

  10. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

    Mar 21, 2007
    Wisconsin, USA
    Thanks for mentioning so many good guitars.

    I've not always been into this but I remember looking for a decent guitar in 1977 vs 2007 - wow have things changed for the better. By comparison they really are all over now.

    Next on good guitars. I've had the privilege to play some holy grail type old acoustics and electrics as well as what the best makers produce now. With that I happen to think this is the golden era - not 1930s or 50s even though it's fair to say that's when we got the OM, dread, Telecaster, Les Paul and other famous ones.

    The collectors probably create some excitement, interest and fuel for the makers and industry.

    Success envy appears to be one of the biggest if we indeed have a problem.
     

  11. Jared Purdy

    Jared Purdy Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    57
    Jan 26, 2010
    Toronto, Ontario.
    I don't think I really get it. Somehow my appreciation, want, combined with dollar value equation has a price limit, and it's WAY short of $250,000!!! In other words those other worldly prices don't mean anything to me and if I had that kind of dough I wouldn't be spending it on a 60 year old beat up guitar!!

    The above thread by imwjl speaks volumes to me when s/he says that it us in 2014 who have it made as a far as living in a period to purchase so called golden era guitars are concerned (and amps for that matter).

    I have three absolutely gorgeous electric guitars (and one fabulous Martin OM28 Marquis) and the most expensive one was $6000, a far cry short of $250,000 (though still a chunk of cash). And it looks a hell of a lot nicer than any of those antique beaters, plays just as well, was built just as well if not better, has a nicer top than those early models and will still be around in 50 years.

    All of them were built in the last three years, and all of them are the result of the improvements to manufacturing that Martin, Fender and Gibson have employed. Yup, I think it's us who are buying guitars today who have it made. If those guys who have been snatching up the vintage guitars from the 50's have ben driving up the prices on vintage guitars, fine so be it, let them have their fun as it means absolutely nothing to me. And if by some measure they have helped to push the guitar manufacturers to be more diligent in making authentic 50's recreations today, then I salute them as we are the beneficiaries of their endeavors. It's a good day to be buying new guitars and amps folks.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2014

  12. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

    Mar 21, 2007
    Wisconsin, USA
    Yes, for non-vintage I think the competition keeps prices in check.

    If one does not like what collectors, hype, brand building and marketing might do for Fenders, Gibsons Martins and other classics buy a Collings, Santa Cruz or a few others. I'm convinced Richard Hoover, Bill Collings and a few others lead what will be considered the best guitar making firms of this time. Their output is more competitive in terms of price than many might realize.
     

  13. Jared Purdy

    Jared Purdy Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    57
    Jan 26, 2010
    Toronto, Ontario.
    And to that, on the acoustic end at least we could add Breedlove and Bourgeois. You can get a Brazilian rosewood 00028 series Bourgeois for about $6500. Martin, over $10K
     

  14. tjh5207

    tjh5207 TDPRI Member

    34
    Aug 22, 2013
    Nashville, TN
    For those that think the vintage market only appeals to the Baby Boomers, you are wrong. I am 22 years old, and have paid off all my college debt (Berklee is not cheap!) by selling vintage guitars. The interest for vintage gear among my peers and students at school is high! I am not a trust fund baby and I do not come from a rich family. I started small by buying 60's Black Face amps. I then moved on to tweeds, which went to 50's Gibson Guitars, to the point where I could finally afford a stock 52' Tele.

    The key is to buy only the good stuff!! Don't settle for the stuff that has been altered and messed with. If you are strictly a player, this is fine, but don't buy that kind of gear thinking you can flip it for a profit. Save the headache! We've all been there, trying to sell that refinished guitar or that blackguard tele with the humbucker route haha! It can be a nightmare!

    You can't get rich off one guitar, but you can make some decent cash if you are smart and only buy the good stuff. Would I ever buy a 59' Burst? No! The people who can actually afford that guitar are slim to none. But guitars in the 10,000-$30,000 I have had no issues flipping those guitars. Do I consider vintage guitars investments? I have no clue, but I know that if you are smart you can make money off them. Also at the end of the day, I have had the opportunity to play some of the most amazing guitars and amps in the world....and pay for school. The electric guitar is the most iconic instrument of all time, it isn't going anywhere folks!!
     

  15. Robert H.

    Robert H. Friend of Leo's

    Jul 28, 2005
    N. Cal.
    You're probably right. But I'm about to sell an 03 R9 Braz for a lot more than I paid for it in 2003.
     

  16. Jared Purdy

    Jared Purdy Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    57
    Jan 26, 2010
    Toronto, Ontario.
    If it wasn't Brazilian though, I'd bet you would be able to.
     

  17. Jared Purdy

    Jared Purdy Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    57
    Jan 26, 2010
    Toronto, Ontario.
    At this point, I couldn't justify spending $10K for guitar - especially one that I would keep and play. Part of that is based on my salary (and I therefore ask myself "is it justifiable?") and the other part is that I'm really not that good of a player to warrant spending $6000 let alone $10K on an instrument. I justified the $6000 as I finally got tenure at my college and a big raise to boot, but I'm not an investment banker or some kind of industry tycoon, and nor am I inclined to get into the business of flipping guitars. However, I can see the allure in it, and I applaud you on your financial savvy!! And I'm sure you have played some fine instruments (the 52 must have been sweet!).

    My position is that I want nice instruments, that are well made and look nice, that I will age myself. I generally keep my stuff (though sometimes in the pursuit of what I am after I end up buying and selling and buying again until I find what I am looking for). I doubt that I will ever sell any of the instruments or amps that I now have - they all have exactly what I was looking for.

    And perhaps it is people like yourself who have helped to motivate the manufacturers to finally produce quality, vintage spec guitars. There are only a handful of real 59s out there, and a handful of real 52's and prewar D45s, and as you point out the number of people in the world who are in a position to buy those guitars is very small. So why not recreate, as "reissues" near as possible exact copies of those iconic instruments? I think they have, and then some. Though to look at some of the comments on My Les Paul or the Les Paul Forum you'd swear that Gibson hasn't gone far enough. Not even hide glue on the neck has satisfied some of them! :lol:

    You are right too about the iconic quality of the electric guitar, and that it isn't going anywhere. However, what is going somewhere are the woods that are being used and I wonder how long we will continue to see guitars with India rosewood, and African ebony in the construction?
     

  18. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

    Mar 21, 2007
    Wisconsin, USA
    None of this vintage talk could rattle Wall St. beyond at the bar or cocktail talk. First add up the vintage business done. Then add up all of Collings, Breedlove, SCGC, Pantheon, add a few. I doubt their business in a few months or year would approach what the big firms do in days.

    I also know from different collecting I've done that there are probably not enough vintage items out there to make much of a market. How many 1930s Fords vs Martins were made? Compare the Chevrolet coupe output in 1953 to Fender's.

    Then we have the fact that Wall St. and Fender did meet up. Didn't Fender pull the IPO not long after it was announced in 2012?

    More hints are out there when word of Guitar Center and Gibson debt get around.

    Thank the whole vintage thing for fueling marketing.

    Yeah, young musicians and some of the rich do somethings do want vintage stuff. You can make a fair argument they're not the norm, and the desire for vintage vibe probably helps the marketing department more than Fender's Gibson's or Guitar Center debt.

    :)
     

  19. getbent

    getbent Telefied Ad Free Member

    this is a great discussion... we each set our limits, right? I have a friend who takes his entire extended family (22 people I think) on vacation at LEAST once a year! He takes them to Aruba, Tahiti, Caymans etc... I'm trying to even grasp how much that costs! hotels, great food, cabs to and from, flights etc... and lots of activities while there...

    He sees it as... something to be done! You have a righteous amp, right, like a goodsell.... there are guys here who would bristle and say "way too expensive!"

    That same friend has a few weird things that he is super cheap on... I think we just make up the 'limits' and go with it!
     

  20. Jared Purdy

    Jared Purdy Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    57
    Jan 26, 2010
    Toronto, Ontario.
    Too true! That friend of yours is someone to aspire towards. Not that I can afford to take 22 people on vacation, but if I could....!
     

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