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Undermining superheroes.

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by WetBandit, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. WetBandit

    WetBandit Friend of Leo's

    Oct 11, 2016
    Well I finally broke down and went with the wife to see The Avengers: infinity war last night.

    It raised a few questions that I have thought about in the past, but just never really found answers to.

    First off, I understand that Thanos beats up on the Hulk because he is a far superior fighter, but to make him appear physically stronger/more capable?

    So I continued searching around this morning for some other opinions, and apparently Stan Lee himself claims even Thor is physically stronger than hulk...

    Despite the fact that Thor can wield lightning, fly, has super endurance, and practical invulnerability due to being a god... What is the only thing Hulk has? Strength, regeneration, and major durability... that's it...

    So that begs the question what is the point of the Hulks continued existence?

    Same goes for the DC universe.... Superman is just as fast if not faster than the flash, with a plethora of other major powers and abilities so what is the Flashs reason for even existing?

    Why do writers keep undermining heroes to the point that they are useless?

    I mean Flash in DC should be the fastest period because that's ALL he does...

    HULK should be the physically Strongest because it's essentially ALL he has...

    Otherwise what is the point?

    It's like hey these guys have Superior strength, superior speed, energy projection, and a vast array of other powers...

    But then others just get one of those that is not even as good?

    When Icons become filler in a hotdog...

    The whole Justice league movie was trash... hey everyone please be depicted as weak as possible so only superman can save the day, and render everyone else pointless.

    I'm about to cut up my nerd card and throw it in the trash!
    Toto'sDad likes this.
  2. SixStringSlinger

    SixStringSlinger Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    May 21, 2006
    Maybe I read into this more than you do (and maybe too much in general), but I think that to say strength is "all" the Hulk has is reading him to shallowly. Or rather, seeing him only in terms of his powers is not reading far enough. The "point" of the Hulk (as I see it) is the dichotomy between Bruce Banner (mild-mannered, intellectual, physically weak or at least nothing special) and the Hulk (pure instinct/anger, kinda dumb, brutally strong) and the character's struggle between the two. Bruce Banner doesn't want the Hulk, and the Hulk is often actively in the way of Bruce's desires. But, the Hulk is also often what's needed to save the day, or whatever. So that's what's interesting, that tension. Big green guy being angry and destroying stuff, while fun (I love me some Godzilla movies for, largely, this very reason), can only hold your interest for so long.

    Now, has the above been used effectively in the Marvel movies so far? I'd say no, for the most part. The most we've gotten is enticing little bits and pieces (his relationship with Black Widow, all the stuff in Ragnarok, and especially (for me) the Hulk's refusal to "come out" in Infinity War). But regardless of the MCU's success or failure in using the character effectively, the above is, in my opinion, the whole point of that character.

    I don't know anything about the Flash, really, but Superman is another example. He's more than a super-powerful do-gooder immune to everything but little green rocks. He's also a metaphor for immigrants doing good in/for their new home. He's used to explore the interplay between power and duty/responsibility (Superman could easily be a God to humanity if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to). In some comics his do-gooder-ness leads him to become a government yes-man.

    I agree justice League was garbage, so I won't say anything there. Anyway, my point is just that superpowers may have once been the whole point of a character (this is the fast one, this is the bat-one...), the only reason we're still talking about the same characters as decades ago is because there's more to them, and therefore more of a point to them than what they can do.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  3. Toto'sDad

    Toto'sDad Telefied Ad Free Member

    Jun 21, 2011
    You left out Ex-Lax, it can kick the crap out of Superman!

    WetBandit likes this.
  4. Bob Womack

    Bob Womack Tele-Holic

    You are asking for this guy:

    The Underminer from The Incredibles

    Toto'sDad and WetBandit like this.
  5. WetBandit

    WetBandit Friend of Leo's

    Oct 11, 2016
    I understand where you are coming from, but you can totally tell a story and give a showing of deep character development without poking and prodding around with what makes the character who they are...

    I mean it would be like taking away all Bruce Wayne's money and tech. He is then simply Bruce Wayne. Sure he is ridiculously intelligent, and a great martial artist, but he would certainly not be Batman.

    I mean, I for one do not watch or read about super heroes for the deep character development and underlying plot manipulation/devices...

    Some things should be left how they were intended, and not be basterdised and forced to "grow up"

    Superheroes are childish and fun, and that shouldn't be toiled with in my opinion.

    Besides, the kids done care about Bruce or Banner, the want the Bat and the Green guy.

    But yea Justice league spent how long building up Aquaman making him look like a bad ass and trying to get him on the team, just to have him do almost nothing and play second fiddle to nearly everyone. Completley missed opportunity imo.
  6. unixfish

    unixfish Poster Extraordinaire

    Apr 20, 2013
    Northeast Ohio, USA
    Yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but...

    These movies represent a franchise. If they were "the strongest / the fastest / the bestest" only, their characters would become two dimensional very quickly, and there would not be much to build on past the first three movies (or so - just a guess to throw out a number).

    Captain America Civil War was a good example. (While not a great movie,) the "superheroes" were all fighting over policy and politics, and beliefs and where the line in the sand should be drawn. If they were all the "bestest" and good guys, well, it would have been "good fights evil and wins", which would get old quickly. Tension, conflict, blah blah blah you know all of this.

    To your point, though - if they are making character "weak" for the sake of longevity of a franchise, then are they minimizing the character and the franchise to the point of irrelevance? I think they have with some characters - but not everyone can be the bestest - but they are now worthless - but...

    Yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but...

    I have no idea what my point is here. :confused:
  7. SixStringSlinger

    SixStringSlinger Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    May 21, 2006
    I think I get it. I just think if you make the Hulk the undisputed absolute strongest who can never get whooped, it's just not interesting, at least not for long. You'd probably never have him in more than one movie, anyway.
  8. EddieLocrian

    EddieLocrian Tele-Holic

    Feb 7, 2014
    I guess the best superhero would:

    a, be a good guy.
    b, have greater abilities in every possible area than anyone else.
    c, have no weaknesses at all.
    d, be one of us.
    e, can never die.

    I don't think this character exists in Marvel or DC

  9. pedro58

    pedro58 TDPRI Member

    Jan 25, 2004
    North Texas
    The characters were not originally meant, I think, to act as part of one giant story. So any attempt to make a movie, or a comic book, that pits these characters against each other or some villain is going to be disjointed. It's like soap operas. Tons of inconsistencies. Or so they say...
  10. Bristlehound

    Bristlehound Friend of Leo's

    Jan 4, 2017
  11. beninma

    beninma Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

    Mar 17, 2017
    You forgot to check your brain at the door.

    Nothing in these stories needs to make any sense. The whole thing with the movies has jumped the shark. The success is there because as long as everyone checks their brain at the door you can enjoy the movie no matter what country you live in or what language you speak or how bad the movie is dubbed for your language. They want all the chinese movie goers to enjoy it as much as you so they can make the big bucks.

    They beat Spiderman and Batman into a pulp quite a while ago, the first Iron Man or 2 were pretty good, Avengers is just dreck IMO... just non stop fighting with all kinds of silly plot twists to make sure their is just more meaningless fighting to fill up the whole movie.

    The whole art of all these is just the comic book artists doing their drawings... the stories have always been lame unless you're 11 years old.
  12. TheGoodTexan

    TheGoodTexan Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Apr 28, 2003
    Nashville, TN
    If I were a superhero, my power would be incredible hindsight. I would be able to tell everyone what they should have done in any give situation, without fail.
    ComeAndTakeIt likes this.
  13. Preacher

    Preacher Friend of Leo's

    Apr 17, 2007
    Big D
    Hey, you just ruined my secret identity...
    TheGoodTexan likes this.
  14. Solrac Kai

    Solrac Kai Tele-Meister

    Dec 14, 2011
    You are under the common misconception that the powers of the super heroes is the important part of their makeup when in fact it’s their weakness that makes them memorable. This is straight from the lips of Stan Lee
  15. Paul in Colorado

    Paul in Colorado Telefied Ad Free Member

    Mar 17, 2003
    Fort Collins, CO
    I feel like I just wandered into an episode of The Big Bang Theory. And if I have, I'm going to go get drunk with Penny and let you guys figure out the super hero stuff.
    bgmacaw likes this.
  16. bendercaster

    bendercaster Tele-Holic

    Sep 20, 2011
    Um, actually, the Flash is the faster than Superman. I havent seen the movie, so maybe they got it wrong. But in the comics, Flash (all of them) can travel faster than light and time travel via the speed force.
  17. Fearnot

    Fearnot Friend of Leo's

    Jan 17, 2010
    Decatur, GA
    As someone pointed out recently, these guys can destroy a city and walk away without a scratch. The whole superhero genre has become fat and bloated, with every story carrying the fate of the universe on it's back. It's exhausting.

    I like to see these once in awhile, but I just can't stomach the barrage of movies Marvel and DC are throwing at us now. Frankly, the new Incredibles movie took care of that for me for the next couple of months.
  18. Frank'n'censed

    Frank'n'censed Doctor of Teleocity

    Mar 27, 2011
    Parts Unknown
    Hulkamania will never die!!!
  19. Old Tele man

    Old Tele man Friend of Leo's

    May 10, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Some people gotta throw ROCKS...some gotta throw FLOWERS.
  20. RoyalBaby

    RoyalBaby Tele-Afflicted

    Jul 23, 2013
    Birmingham, UK
    I still have my Marvel comics and books from my teens. I’m, by and large,not a big fan of the modern movies and TV. Almost certainly the best for me was Logan which had such a human side; the super heroes are just too super and the films are just endless whizz bang CGI which bores me senseless. Jessica Jones I find watchable ( at least I don’t walk out them the room when it’s on ) and I like the music in Luke Cage but stuff like The Avengers films bore me silly. Stan Lee was trying to write comic books that could be appreciated by adults and that’s lost with things like Infinity War.
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